Gentleman Pipers

[Uilliam]

I read in another thread some hypothesis plucked frae thin air and thought to transfer the subject to a new thread.
Pipers in the 19th and 18thce could, and some were, employed by the Anglo Irish Ascendancy on a regular basis and received food lodgings and no doubt some money on their visits.They would travel around ,much like the Harpers in the centuries before and with them would travel news and gossip and thus they were well received.Here in Scotland most clan chiefs had their own piper and it was often hereditary.Itinerant travellers where not considered the lowest of the low as Silver Spear said but again were often welcomed in an otherwise drab existence as bearers of news and household commodoties and repairers etc.There is no evidence that thay played musically inferior instruments and of course the odd ones made in silver etc have survived and ended up in museums but tinkers were also silversmiths as well, lets not forget...
Now then the term Gentleman Pipers has been oft used and some o ye presume that to be the title of the Piper which seems a little strange to me,given that I am sure the gentleman would rather hire the piper or better still be his patron than actually play the instrument of the largely country folk.
Much more likely is that the pipers were referred to by his peers if he was employed as such or had a patron as the "Gentleman's Piper"
The s being dropped at some point and the assumption(that he has morphed into a Gentleman Piper) then taken to heights it was never generally intended to mean..
I mean living proof is this board..how many gentlemen pipers are on it?
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[KAD]

I can certainly say I'm not one.

KAD

[WireHarp]

Ahh but there is the point of it Uilliam, they were not the Gentlemen's Pipers, they WERE the gentlement themselves. A big shift takes place in the musical heirarchy with the loss of the harpers and their patrons. For hundreds of years those harpers were the hired men (and some wymmin) but with the beginning of the 18th century things begin to shift dramatically. More and more the wealthy are not solely relying on entertainers to amuse them , but they entertain themselves. If you look at the Geoghegan tutor for pastoral pipes in 1746 (http://ephemer.al.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/geoghegan.pdf) the fella on the frontpiece is about as swell as a swell can get. The same goes for Robert Bremners instruction book for the guittar, aimed at the ladies, in 1756. The upper sort is more and more playing to entertain themselves, to participate rather than just listen. Rockstro published a tutor on the flute, there is the Oswald publications in Scotland as well.
The harp did not die from politics, it died from Italian opera and chromaticism. Well as Ross Anderson's discovery of the Advocates and Sutherland MSS have shown the pipes were able to adapt to the new music where the harp could not, so we see a rise in the popularity of piping as a pastime of the elite. Did they also have pipers in their household? Sure.. but the military tradition means they served more than one function.

We all know it is more fun to do than to watch

I hope my ramblings have made SOME sense..

Robert Mouland
www.wireharp.com

[ausdag]

I read in another thread some hypothesis plucked frae thin air and thought to transfer the subject to a new thread.

Since it was I who initiated that particular slant on the above mentioned thread I would like to clarify that my post was not an hypothesis plucked frae thin air, but merely, as I stated at the outset, that which "I always thought, but may be completely wrong", in other words, an unfounded idea based on no real data, unlike an hypothesis, and a call for clarification. As for the bit about the less expensive sets of pipes, I thought I had read somewhere that the later makers of wide bore pipes intentionally 'cut corners' if you like, in order to make pipes cheaper and more accessible to 'the common man'. Perhaps I was also mistaken on that too. Anyway,I was sufficiently clarified.

Cheers,

DavidG

[Cynth]

It seems like the word "travelling" has some confusion connected with it.

On the one hand, there were the travelling musicians who were treated well.

On the other hand, there is the group of people known as Travellers who were not treated well as a group by Irish society. I know of some musicians that come from of this group of people. Johnny Doran, Paddy Keenan, Finbar Furey.

From my NPU booklet, it sounds as though Johnny Doran was greatly welcomed by crowds of people during his short life. I don't know if he was accepted as part of mainstream society.

Paddy Keenan has talked about how rough things were growing up when his family settled in a house. The other people did not like them around.
http://www.celticcafe.com/archive/Music/keenan/one.htm He seemed to feel he was treated as the lowest of the low.

I don't know which travelling musicians were from the minority group now called the Traveller people, and which were from the majority group and just travelled around, if you see my problem.

There are quite a few websites documenting the life of the Travellers. They might have been welcomed in some places (I am not refering to musicians here), but they were not welcomed at all in a lot of other places. So, I do not think Silver Spear was mis-speaking about the Traveller people in general. He was not saying how he felt about the Traveller people, but how they were treated by Irish society.

I'm just bringing this up to point out where I thought there was some confusion.

[Uilliam]

I hope my ramblings have made SOME sense..

Robert Mouland
www.wireharp.com

Not really,yours is a hypothesis based on a picture of a piper playing pastoral pipes and dressed in the fashion of the day.Do you really think that the patron would want a ragamuffin playing for his family or guests..it wouldnae make much of an impression would it!!I rather feel that the clothing would go with the job...even the servants were well turned out.Now of course there were some gentlemen pipers Henry Colclough being one but he was also trying to make a living selling a tutor and playing the Irish Pipes not pastoral pipes that ye were referring to.Perhaps he had fallen on hard times and was trying to maintain a lifestyle.
Who knows...I certainly don't know for certain no more than ye do...

The guitar is a bit of a red herring as for centuries the Genteel Ladies would amuse themselves with stringed instruments lute et al...

Ausdag what makes ye think I was referring to yerself.?
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[smithand]

It seems like the word "travelling" has some confusion connected with it.

On the one hand, there were the travelling musicians who were treated well. .

It's an interesting distinction, isn't it. But not so mysterious really. When I grew up in Wales, funfairs and circuses were welcomed to town, and obviously these are travelling people, in the literal sense. On the other hand, campsites put down by other travelling people weren't welcome at all, and were the subject of newspaper campaigns and the like. There was a lot of suspicion directed at door-to-door scrap metal merchants or women selling heather. People even used to say 'they aren't real Romany Gypsies, just Irish tinkers.' As if Romany gypsies would be considered respectable if they came to town!

I think it's simply self-interest. If travelling people bring something that is felt to benefit the settled community, then they are desirable, if they are perceived to be a burden on the community, then they should be booted out.

Andrew

[ausdag]

Ausdag what makes ye think I was referring to yerself.?
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

I didn't necessarily think you specifically where referring to myself, rather, since you brought up the subject of hypotheses plucked out of thin air, I thought I'd better clarify my own position lest anyone think I was attempting to hypothesise. However, your remark that "There is no evidence that thay played musically inferior instruments " was, I take it, in reference to my comments on wide bore pipes being cheaper than narrow bore pipes. No one else commented on this. So in that respect you were referring to me. Not that I'm offended in any way.

[Uilliam]

Aus I am glad that ye are not offended...didn't think for one mo there was anything to be offended about
My sentence "There is no evidence that thay played musically inferior instruments " was not a reference at all to the quality of the instrument nor your reference to wide bore sets but to the musicalityof the instrument.There is quite a big difference in meaning.But since ye mention it and as Silver Spear also alluded to the difference in styles between the aristos and the peasants it may be worthy to note that there was not such the difference in pitch between the instruments pre wide bore ie they tended to be around the C# and B (no set standard)..so pre wide bore cannot be used as an argument as the sets would have been musically all much of a muchness.
Anyways what evidence is there to qualify a statement that one class of people played staccato and another (lower class) played legato...that is absurd...sorry its drifting back to the other thread..enough... in the greater scheme of things this is so unimportant really.....
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[TheSilverSpear]

Anyways what evidence is there to qualify a statement that one class of people played staccato and another (lower class) played legato...that is absurd...sorry its drifting back to the other thread..enough... in the greater scheme of things this is so unimportant really.....

It sounds absurd when you phrase it that way, but it's not absurd at all to suggest that musicians might have played similarly to the other musicians in their immediate community who would have taught them how to play. Traditions are, after all, maintained by people in your social group. It's not something you choose because you like it, but rather something that's a part of your life no matter what. If you want to learn pipes and live in the middle of West Clare without a car or electricity (or the internet!), what choice do you have but to play the music in your community? Musicians did travel so outside influences would not be completely absent, but they would have been few and far between. Your primary influences would have been your elders, who came to the music the same way you did. Chances are that your style, even if you put your own stamp on it, would be heavily influenced by the other musicians who you've listened to and who taught you. Given the stratification of Ireland in the 19th Century and the extreme poverty (not in the landowning Ascendency, but the disenfranchised and landless peasants) and lack of mobility, your main teachers would probably be the people in your geographical as well as social community.

Obviously this has become less and less of the case, what with the access people now have to recording technology and the increase in social and physical mobility.

[Uilliam]

The travelling piper or itinerant piper was far more common than ye appear to give credit for.The area of travel would be greater than one or two villages.Don't forget this was their living so a wider area would be the norm.A few nights here and a few nights there would amount to quite a few lodgings throughout the year.Plus I suspect ye would have to take the boredom factor into account. Your not going to want to put up Piping Tim who was only here with the gossip last month again are ye?I don't think it is as clear cut as ye seem to think.
Slán Go Foill
Uilliam

[marcpipes]

I had always had a misconception of the term gentleman piper. Over here it tended to mean(in modern times at least) a dabbler at piping or someone who could play, but didn't make it a big part of their life by doing gigs, teaching or playing with a band. I find too many of that ilk and like the definition of gentleman's piper a bit better.
Marc

[reedbiter]

...I've always thought the phrase a bit misleading, rather an oxy-moron like "postal service" or "army intelligence"

[maze]

KAD,

you are much more of a "gentleman" in manner than all of us on this forum combined. your course of research has no bearing on this declaration... just my intense admiration of your craft, attention to detail, subtlety, and distinquished taste... "man" seems dated now that we are in the 21st century.

see you soon.

[WireHarp]

"Not really,yours is a hypothesis based on a picture of a piper playing pastoral pipes and dressed in the fashion of the day.Do you really think that the patron would want a ragamuffin playing for his family or guests..."

Well actually my hypothesis is based more upon the liklihood of who could afford to be spending money out of pocket for printed tutors. The 'dressing up the help' had a long tradition as livery. I don't recall any account except one, of the wealthy buying clothing for itinerant musicians and that was merely a set of silver buttons given to Arthur O Neill (harper).

"The guitar is a bit of a red herring as for centuries the Genteel Ladies would amuse themselves with stringed instruments lute et al..."

Odd that ladies amusing themselves with strings is fine, but no gentlemen amusing themselves with pipes.
Perhaps the herring is getting a tad pink..

RWM