getting to grips with a new (to me) practise set

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:18 am

If I take the chanter out, stick my thumb over the end of the bag, and pump, I shouldn't be hearing a whistle of leaking air coming from the intake on the bellows, correct? is that a sign the summat's amiss? Or is a little leakage there acceptable?

MikeyLikesIt · Post by **MikeyLikesIt** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:46 am

Leaks are a pain in the butt. I'll pm you a recipe I got from another piper for bag seasoning. It worked really well for me. My first practice set had some leaks along the seams of the bag and this stuff sealed them right up. Good luck with the piping.

-Mike

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:13 am

Shouldn't be leaking there s1m0n. Sounds like the valve flap may need a little lookin' at and adjustment.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:04 am

Leaks? Hey, we don't discuss politics here!

Nothing's totally airtight, but if you put your thumb over the hole where the chanter goes into the neck of the bag, and fill the bag and bellows with air, I would expect the bellows to stay full for at least a minute while maintaining pressure with the elbow one time. Like Joe says, it's probably the valve that needs turned the right direction...or it's not seating right.

Who made your chanter and bellows...or where did they come from?

CJ DIXON · Post by **CJ DIXON** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:33 am

Have a look at the orientation of your bellows checkvalve flap. Make sure that, when the bellows is secured to your body, the flap hangs toward the floor. This is rather important for a good seal and is usually the problem and an easy fix.

If it is oriented correctly and is still leaking, gently remove the check valve from the bellows and have a look at its condition as well as how it sits against the valve body. If you lift the flap gently and look under it, you will see the circle "seat line" which should be well within the flap circumference. If it is not then it is most likely just not fastened parallel to the body... unfasten the flap and resecure it.

Another thing to check is to apply a slight amount of pressure to the flap against the body, hold the check valve at eye height and against a light source (sun, lamp etc) and you should not see any light within the "seat line" mentioned above. If you do then check that the hinge on your flap is at the elbow of the valve body side and butt. If it is not correctly positioned then your flap will not sit flush against the butt of the body. The last thing is to hold the check valve parallel to the floor and observe the flap position. It should want to hang freely (perpendicular) towards the floor. If it is more parallel then the leather at the hinge is probably to thick and you may need to very slightly remove some of it by sanding or using a knife.

I hope this helps.
ATB,
CJ

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:14 am

I've tried this experiment with the bellows only, and that's definitely where the leak's coming from.

The check valve was easy to remove, and if I purse my lips around it from the rear and blow, it appears to be reasonably airtight.

I'm wondering about the way the valve seats in the socket, however. Should there be some kind of thread lapping, or seal-making goo, or silicon tape or something here?

The valve looks to have been turned out of ebony and the shaft has a 1/4 inch wide groove turned in it, which was filled with a black paste or glue which is hard enough to resist poking with a finger nail. Am I on the right track?

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:30 am

Any possibility of a photo of the suspected area?

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:20 pm

Joseph E. Smith wrote:Any possibility of a photo of the suspected area?

It's eedbjp's MacNicholl set, which I think you made (or at least inspected) the reed for.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 12:52 pm

I've never seen a hinge that loops up and over like that. Maybe there is something there I don't see. Most hinges I've seen are sliced ½ way through the leather and wrapped tightly over the edge of the wood (not looped up loosely in the air) so that the edge of the flapper and hinge--all being one piece--remains tight against the edge and side of the wood and only has one choice where to land...like a hinged door.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 1:53 pm

I've seen this style of valve before, and I confess that I am not a big fan of them. It is almost as though the maker was trying to reinvent the wheel, to make things easier somehow, when actually, it just complicated something that (IMHO) was best left simple.

Like this:

One piece of leather, one piece of waxed twine and the valve. The best thing about the older simpler version is that it is nothing to repair or replace. I applied plumbers teflon tape to the binding to aid in keeping the valve snug in its place.

I would advise you switch to the older method.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 3:14 pm

I'll start by trying T-tape. I actually think the leak might be around the outside, not through the valve. As I said, when I sealed my lips around it and blew, it worked fine--I'd have blown my ear drums before the valve gave way.

~~

The copper flap pinches the leather 'hinge' so that the leather tries to straighten itself against the seat of the valve, rather than trying to straighten away. This seems to be no bad thing, in theory. As in the other model, the only actual moving part is the leather.

Joseph E. Smith · Post by **Joseph E. Smith** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 4:53 pm

s1m0n wrote:The copper flap pinches the leather 'hinge' so that the leather tries to straighten itself against the seat of the valve, rather than trying to straighten away. This seems to be no bad thing, in theory. As in the other model, the only actual moving part is the leather.

Yup, the other model is simply leather that has been notched at the hinge. Unlike the copper/leather hinge it is one piece, therfore, nothing to interfere with the valve movement. I have experienced the valve in your model actually getting caught in the copper loop, preventing the valve from either opening or closing. Not fun when it happens.

But, I guess "six of one, half dozen of the other" is the name of this tune.

liestman · Post by **liestman** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 6:48 pm

For my 2 cents, I think the copper piece that keeps the leather "wanting" to close against the wood is a good idea, but from the looks of the thread wrapping, I bet the wrapping is at fault. If you compare your photo to Josephs, you will see that your wrappings, being very large diameter thread are only contacting the hole in the clapper here and there, whereas Josephs piece, being wrapped with finer thread and teflon, is contacting the clapper almost everywhere, giving a much better seal.

Just put some soapy water around the valve area and it will show you where the leak is. (Of course, wipe off the soapy water when you are done.) This can be done on bag seams, bellows parts, just about anywhere that you have gas escaping and want to locate the source.

s1m0n · Post by **s1m0n** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:51 pm

liestman wrote:..you will see that your wrappings, being very large diameter thread are only contacting the hole in the clapper here and there..

There's no thread at all--it's something like black wax. Does anyone have an idea what this might be, and how it's supposed to work?

Bill Reeder · Post by **Bill Reeder** » Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:13 pm

A liberal coating of black cobblers wax, perhaps?