Fingering help needed - Lesl alert!

[Jumbuk]

This is a request for help with fingering a particular phrase. Since it's from one of the tunes in Lesl's (excellent) book, it is probably a question for Lesl, but the answer may be of interest to others, so I made it a public post.

The tune is The Little Stack of Wheat. Several places in the tune, there is a triplet b-c-d. This triplet is in other tunes, but this is the first time I have noticed it to be a problem - probably because it occurs so often!

I am fingering it the "obvious" way, like this:

b = xoo ooo
c = oxx ooo
d = oxx xxx

Now, the problem is that it sounds awkward, not smooth the way connecting triplets using sound (like the one starting on d later in the tune). This could be just my awkward transition from one fingering to the next - but even when I play it slow, there is a kind of "jump" in the airflow between the notes.

My question - is there a better way to do this? Even if you all say "no", that will help me, because I will then know that I just have to work on this little phrase to get it right. Before I do that, it would be good to check that I am not wasting my time!

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

[GaryKelly]

B-c-d is a common triplet, particulary in hornpipes. Assuming you don't have a keyed flute, you could try half-holing the B, kind of doing a 'slide' up to the d. Depending on the tempo you're playing at, you may get away with a brief C# in place of the c-nat, and if you slide off the B that can go completely unnoticed by the listener. But whatever you do, practice is, of course, at the heart of it all.

[Jumbuk]

Assuming you don't have a keyed flute,

Thanks Gary - can I assume then that you use the Cnat key yourself for this kind of triplet?

As it happens, I do have both a keyed and a keyless flute. I have been avoiding the keys in straight ITM tunes so I don't end up depending on the keyed flute (I mainly use it for accompanying songs etc in keys outside D and G and their modes).

[Matt_Paris]

I am fingering it the "obvious" way, like this:

b = xoo ooo
c = oxx ooo
d = oxx xxx

Now, the problem is that it sounds awkward, not smooth the way connecting triplets using sound (like the one starting on d later in the tune). This could be just my awkward transition from one fingering to the next - but even when I play it slow, there is a kind of "jump" in the airflow between the notes.

I use this:

b = xoo oxx
c = oxx oxx
d = oxx xxx

It sounds good on my flute, because my B is slightly sharp, and the Cnat seems to be unaffected. But I suppose it wouldn't work for everyone.

[peeplj]

Another fingering you might try:

B x o o | o o o

C o x o | x x x

D o x x | x x x

That works on most flutes. The C-natural may be a little sharp, but in a triplet at speed it won't matter at all.

That said, I can get a good triplet using the "standard" C-natural fingering of o x x | o o o . It just takes practice to smooth it out.

--James

[GaryKelly]

can I assume then that you use the Cnat key yourself for this kind of triplet?

Nope! Although on the keyed flute I do have, the Cnat is the one that gets the most use. I use the fingering you've shown in jigs, and will sometimes do the slidey-thing I mentioned earlier when that particular triplet is a "3" in hornpipes and other tunes.

If this is a new combination for you then it's just a matter of practice, it'll soon smooth itself out. Considering that most traditional tunes occupy a compass of 14 notes, it's surprising how often you come across combinations you've never encountered before. A few months back I started learning a tune (from Lesl's book, coincidentally) which had a run of notes cEG|cGE cEG| (the c's being natural). Now that was interesting for a while!

[bradhurley]

For B-C-D triplets, no matter what key the tune is in, try playing C# instead of C natural. The note goes by so fast that it doesn't sound out of tune. I have never played C natural in a B-C-D triplet myself and I use those triplets all the time in my playing, virtually every time you go from B to D you can throw the C# in there for a nice triplet that sounds great on the flute.

The B-C#-D triplet is probably the easiest triplet on the flute and whistle because the C# is like a passing note that you hit in going from B to D, and going from B to D is like hitting a toggle switch:

xoo ooo
oxx xxx

You have to lift the B finger anyway to get to the D, so getting that C# in between is a snap!

[Jumbuk]

For B-C-D triplets, no matter what key the tune is in, try playing C# instead of C natural. The note goes by so fast that it doesn't sound out of tune.

Well, I did try that because it was easy, but it didn't sound great (out of tune). I guess that's because I am playing slow to learn the tune.

I am wondering what Mike Rafferty does. Where are you Leisl?

PS Thanks everyone for the good range of ideas to try.

[bradhurley]

I bet Mike plays the C# but we'll see what Lesl says. Pretty much every traditional Irish flute player I've encountered uses the C# in all B-C-D triplets, no matter what key the tune is in.

After a while, your ear stops hearing these things as "out of tune" anyway. I've been listening a lot to Tara Diamond lately, and one of the great features of her playing is that she mixes and matches C# and C all over the place, playing some notes that you would normally expect as a C natural as C sharp instead, and it's gorgeous.

[Sylvester]

I bet Mike plays the C# but we'll see what Lesl says. Pretty much every traditional Irish flute player I've encountered uses the C# in all B-C-D triplets, no matter what key the tune is in.

After a while, your ear stops hearing these things as "out of tune" anyway. I've been listening a lot to Tara Diamond lately, and one of the great features of her playing is that she mixes and matches C# and C all over the place, playing some notes that you would normally expect as a C natural as C sharp instead, and it's gorgeous.

That apparently strange mixture is an effect I love and enjoy. Breandan O'Hare taught us 'the Old Clare Reel' mixing here and there at the second and third part.

[lesl]

Hi I'm Lesl.

The Bcd triplet, Mike Rafferty plays all fingers off in the middle note. c#.

Silly of me to forget to mention this anywhere in the book. It is for any Bcd triplet regardless of key. I'll add this to my list of errata (which I hope one day to have up on a web page).

Speaking of triplets, I seem to recall writing about notating them but can't find it. They are written down as a triplet for convention's sake, but remember that though we call them triplets, in actual fact they are not a classical music triplet.

They sound almost like a sloppy change from B to d. Not as slow as 3 notes in the space of 2 beats, and also not quite 2 semiquavers (16ths) followed by a quaver (8th). Just play the B and then pick up the top hand pointer finger before landing the d fingers.

Sorry for the confusion!

Lesl

[Denny]

Hi I'm Lesl.

You seem to be having image issues here.

[Cathy Wilde]

I bet Mike plays the C# but we'll see what Lesl says. Pretty much every traditional Irish flute player I've encountered uses the C# in all B-C-D triplets, no matter what key the tune is in.

After a while, your ear stops hearing these things as "out of tune" anyway. I've been listening a lot to Tara Diamond lately, and one of the great features of her playing is that she mixes and matches C# and C all over the place, playing some notes that you would normally expect as a C natural as C sharp instead, and it's gorgeous.

Amen. It took me a while to adjust because if felt so WRONG -- even with my teacher telling me to get over it! -- but at the end of the day, it works out fine.

I don't have Lesl's book here with me (Gasp! I left my bible on the nightstand! ), but don't I recall her writing in the intro that Mr. Rafferty Himself uses C, piper's C and C# fairly interchangeably?

Might be worth a look.

Meanwhile, the BCD triplets that worked best for me BE (i.e., Before Enlightenment ) -- and in my occasional habitual reversions -- was/is:

XOO OOO
OXX OOO
OXX XXX

or

XOO OOO
OXX OXX
OXX XXX

This way I feel reasonably well set-up for the oft-inevitable E at the top of the run.

But bottom line, Brad speaks the truth as I understand it.

[Cathy Wilde]

Hi I'm Lesl.

The Bcd triplet, Mike Rafferty plays all fingers off in the middle note. c#.

Silly of me to forget to mention this anywhere in the book. It is for any Bcd triplet regardless of key. I'll add this to my list of errata (which I hope one day to have up on a web page).

Speaking of triplets, I seem to recall writing about notating them but can't find it. They are written down as a triplet for convention's sake, but remember that though we call them triplets, in actual fact they are not a classical music triplet.

They sound almost like a sloppy change from B to d. Not as slow as 3 notes in the space of 2 beats, and also not quite 2 semiquavers (16ths) followed by a quaver (8th). Just play the B and then pick up the top hand pointer finger before landing the d fingers.

Sorry for the confusion!

Lesl

Oh, duh.

Hi, I'm Cathy and I'm an idiot who doesn't read the thread far enough.

Lesl, I coulda sworn you wrote something about that in your intro. Hmm. Wonder where I saw it?

Anyway, at least the BCD alternatives I suggested still oughta work.

Back to the crack pipe,
cat.

[AaronMalcomb]

I'm the opposite. I do Bcd triplets with a oxx ooo C-nat pretty consistently, even in D tunes. The C is so minimal that you don't really hear its pitch. The interruption in sound that Jumbuk mentioned is how I know I've done it right. It gives a little *popping" sound. But I don't always want that so I use C# if I think it sounds better.

I also alternate between venting and unventing the "d." There's more "pop" when you cut a vented "d" because it's technically a C-nat.

I think I learned those from a couple Scoiltrad lessons from Conal Ó Gráda.

That's a good point, Lesl, about how "triplets" should sound.

Cheers,
Aaron