Embouchure undercutting

Sylvester · Post by **Sylvester** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:25 pm

I've seen that some flutes have undercutting work on the embouchure hole and some others don't. What's your view about undercutting? Is it just my imagination or is there any relationship between undercutting and sound production? To me, blowing a embouchure with undercutting is generally easier, I don't have to fend constantly to keep the air stream focused and the flute projects remarkably more. What's the proper angle to stop before ruining the flute?

Thank you all

Mr. Sand paper

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:04 pm

I have to say that there really is no "proper" angle. It will depend on the bore size, hole size, and even the material, this is what I have found from playing lots of Flutes. Yes, I do think undercutting adds more projection try a larger bore Fltue with no undercutting and compare it to a small bore Fltue with undercutting. The difference does exist.

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:40 am

Unseen122 wrote: try a larger bore Fltue with no undercutting and compare it to a small bore Fltue with undercutting. The difference does exist.

This is so very very true.

Matt_Paris · Post by **Matt_Paris** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:16 am

GaryKelly wrote:
Unseen122 wrote: try a larger bore Fltue with no undercutting and compare it to a small bore Fltue with undercutting. The difference does exist.
This is so very very true.

Harley Davidson!

I wanted to add something about sports cars but, well, you know...

SoTX · Post by **SoTX** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:52 am

It seems that the people who really know answers to this question (and there isn't just one) aren't talking.

In my (limited) experience, undercutting the embouchure can change a flute greatly, often making it much easier to play. I'm still working on how to do it and when to stop. I'm not even sure how to measure existing flutes. (Beeswax figures strongly in my current efforts.) I look forward to the comments of others, but past experience doesn't make me too hopeful.

-- Don

GaryKelly · Post by **GaryKelly** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 8:27 am

Robert Bigio, in answer to the question: How would I learn the fine points of bore taper and embouchure undercutting? wrote: The best method is to find a good model and copy it, which is what many people have done.

http://www.enewsbuilder.net/eletra/mod_ ... =000038103

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:09 am

SoTX wrote:I'm not even sure how to measure existing flutes. (Beeswax figures strongly in my current efforts.)
-- Don

The standard method is to use telescoping T gauges, mounted on a rod that has been engraved along it's length for measuring, essentially a ruler that will give you the distance from a given marking, to dead center on the t-gauge heads.

I really dislike measuring this way because it's time consuming and not as accurate as I'd like, but unless you have the time and resources to make a dedicated bore measuring machine (they do exist), "T- gauges on a stick" are the standard.

Loren

Sylvester · Post by **Sylvester** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:12 am

As far as I've read, it seems that undercutting works. Reading your opinions is interesting and your positive views about undercutting coincide completely with my own.

I have two flutes. One of them is a four-keyed ARHPA, african blackwood, beautiful, very well tuned and good volume. The only fault find is that I need to make a great effort to keep the air stream focused. It doesn't make allowances, If I relax just a bit, then it turns breathy and looses tone and volume. No embouchure undercutting at all. The other one is an old cocus Martin Freres with five keys, much lighter, it came to me completely ruined after 50 years inactivity and a good friend and flute player sealed all the cracks, oiled and re-tuned as much as it was possible. Undercutting work in the embouchure hole.

Well, this flute is still out of tune and keep unplayable unless privately, but, some days ago I swapped heads. Measurements were quite different so the ARHPA got sharp but tuned between octaves. I couldn 't believe how easy to play was! Even more volume and brightness with less effort. So I made my mind up and sanded the ARHPA embouchure hole. I've been doing this gradually and the improvement is obvious from the very first notes you play. I play longer, louder and much more focused. It seems that the air runs through the hole whereas formerly it crashed into it.

So, tonight...3rd round: sand paper, a dremel (actually a electric toothbrush) and a flute

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:25 pm

Loren wrote:
SoTX wrote:I'm not even sure how to measure existing flutes. (Beeswax figures strongly in my current efforts.)
-- Don
The standard method is to use telescoping T gauges, mounted on a rod that has been engraved along it's length for measuring, essentially a ruler that will give you the distance from a given marking, to dead center on the t-gauge heads.

I really dislike measuring this way because it's time consuming and not as accurate as I'd like, but unless you have the time and resources to make a dedicated bore measuring machine (they do exist), "T- gauges on a stick" are the standard.

Loren

I think SoTX was referring to copying the emb. angle not the bore of the flute.
The standard is a 7 deg. angle on the oppisite wall (blowing edge). More undercutting will strengthen the second octave and weaken the lower octave. The north, south side of the Emb. is slightly rounded. At least that is what I do.

Casey Burns · Post by **Casey Burns** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:04 pm

Most of us are too busy doing this to comment. I'll just say a few notes here.

In a pinch, the "7 degree angle" that Rockstro expounded upon in the 19th century that many seem to repeat with authority seems a good idea but its much more complex than that. The voicing parameters that seem to fall into play depend upon the bore, the length and width of the embouchure itself, the wall thickness, tone hole layout, edque quality, etc. The shape of the undercutting (straight, slopes, break with an angle, other weird shapes - who or what rule says that these have to be symmetric?) is highly important. Change one parameter and a voicing that formerly worked well stops working.

This is why it is important, especially for those just starting out, to iteratively design up their instruments and learn by doing several (and destroying a bunch of wood or bamboo or plastic) rather than trying to make the perfect flute in their first try.

Its also why it is impossible to answer that question simply.

I just came up for air. Its now back down to the flute mines for me.....

Casey

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:05 pm

"I think SoTX was referring to copying the emb. angle not the bore of the flute."

In retrospect, I see you are probably correct about that Jon. Don and I are having a bit of off board dialog, so I guess I started mixing thoughts.

I'll go back to the things I should be doing now, rather than mucking things up here any further

Loren

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 1:33 pm

Casey Burns wrote:<snip>The voicing parameters that seem to fall into play depend upon the bore, the length and width of the embouchure itself, the wall thickness, tone hole layout, edque quality, etc. The shape of the undercutting (straight, slopes, break with an angle, other weird shapes - who or what rule says that these have to be symmetric?) is highly important. Change one parameter and a voicing that formerly worked well stops working.

That's what I've experienced just from playing different varieties -- even on factory-made Boehm flutes from the same run .... it's amazing how little differences can have such big impact.

Casey, I like your new avatar, but I must confess some lingering nostalgia for the lady in the hat.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:06 pm

Cathy Wilde wrote:
it's amazing how little differences can have such big impact.

Indeed, that is perhaps the most important lesson I learned during my time at von Huene.....well that, and what "little" really means!

Many times, the difference between a very good instrument, and great instrument, comes down to the really tiny details - a thousandth of an inch, or three, here......there...... more so than many makers know or care about, I'm sorry to say (this based on having several thousand instruments from a wide variety of makers cross my bench.) I've witnessed on many occasions really startling changes in tone and or playability of instruments after just one, or two, very fine changes, sometimes in a seemingly "unimportant" area of the instrument's anatomy.

Loren

SoTX · Post by **SoTX** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:40 pm

Thank you Casey, Jon, and Loren. That's far more than I expected, and far more than my negative attitude deserves.

-- Don

Doug_Tipple · Post by **Doug_Tipple** » Tue Feb 21, 2006 6:36 pm

With embouchures cut by hand you can expect some variation from flute to flute, even from the same maker. Here are descriptions of headjoints offered for Yamaha silver flutes. From the description alone you can see that there are many variables to consider when a selecting a particular embouchure design. However, while the verbal descriptions suggest performance qualities, you would need to play each headjoint to actually discover the differences. I assume that there is a similar degree of variety among conical bore flutes.

AC Headjoint: Sharp curve on the front edge of lip plate. Slightly squared hole and undercut. Excellent tonal balance and projection.

BC Headjoint: Sharp curve on front edge of lip plate. Slightly squared undercut, with rich tone and comfortable resistance.

EC Headjoint: High, narrow chimney walls. Rich tone with comfortable resistance. Direct straightforward sound.

CF Headjoint: Traditional French style taper, creates a warm, delicate tone, with relatively high resistance.

CG Headjoint: German style taper that provides ample tone core and a great deal of resistance. Rich tone with a solid midrange.

CY Headjoint: Similar to the French taper, but with a double flare design which creates warm tone color. Excellent center in the mid to high range.