Whistles From Santa

shadeclan · Post by **shadeclan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 8:43 am

Screeeech!!! wrote:
shadeclan wrote:As a side note, Screech, what do you have against The Big Man In Red? After all, we all have our harmless little fantasies and beliefs in things which have no apparent physical proof, such as elves, hobbits and happy marriages. Unless the belief is going to cause some sort of damage, why not let it alone? I myself teach my kids that Santa Claus is a representation of the spirit of selfless giving. Under that definition, I think that many people can honestly say that they believe in Mr. Claus.
It's actually impossible to have something against something that doesn't exist.

If you have nothing against the belief in Santa Claus, then why did you bring it up? You seem to have no difficulty expressing feelings that you say are impossible to have.

Screeeech!!! wrote: I've never noticed this spirit of selfless giving. When i tell people i'm Pagan and therefore don't buy people christmas presents, lo and behold they won't give me anything. There doesn't seem to be any selfless giving going on if you ask me.

Don't you think that, perhaps, people give you no presents out of respect for your beliefs? That would be my motivation in so doing.

Screeeech!!! wrote: but if anyone wishes to proove me wrong and does actually wish to demonstrate how selfless their giving is, then please PM me and i'll let you have my address and maybe you can see your way to sending me a nice Busman whistle.

Nobody had given me an expensive sportscar either, but I don't think that they are being selfish.

It may simply be a matter of attitude that you don't see any selfless people around. Why, right here on this board, I saw messages from Jerry Freeman where he agreed to give away a bunch of whistles to two teenage girls who were just learning to whistle so that they could give them out to their friends. I have also noticed some selfless gifts of whistle information from yourself to others. Giving this info may not mean much to you, but it means a great deal to us newbies.

If you feel left out during the Christmas season, I'm sure that there are kind people right here on this board who would be delighted to send you a little something - heck, I'll even pitch in

!

dfernandez77 · Post by **dfernandez77** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:53 am

Holy Cow! (that's Hindu blasphemy) this worm has turned. Did I say "worm", I meant "thread". I just never heard of a thread turning.

Screeeech!!! wrote:I've never noticed this spirit of selfless giving...

Personally I never looked for a spirit of selfless giving in others. Seems to put a whole reversal thing on the selflessness.

Anyway, the tree, the ornaments, and so much of the symbolism in Christmas is rooted (look I used a tree metaphor) in Paganism, I can play along not being either Christian or Pagan. Though I have noticed that Pagans or Godless heathens (such as me) seem to be out of style in some small places right now (the U.S. being one). But that's not going to stop me from gifting some special folks for the Winter Solstice or whatever.

What I like about this season is the spirit of giving. And the spirit of giving is mine dangit! Mine, mine, mine! - or, well... Ok, you can have some.

If others are in the spirit of exchanging, well that's their prerogative. I'll play along with the spirit of giving and give a few gifts - heck, I'll even give myself one (that Copeland is on order).

Happy Holidays y'all

anniemcu · Post by **anniemcu** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:10 am

dfernandez77 wrote:Holy Cow! ... Happy Holidays y'all

Amen to that and the rest of what you said!

shadeclan · Post by **shadeclan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:10 am

dfernandez77 wrote: Anyway, the tree, the ornaments, and so much of the symbolism in Christmas is rooted (look I used a tree metaphor) in Paganism, I can play along not being either Christian or Pagan. Though I have noticed that Pagans or Godless heathens (such as me) seem to be out of style in some small places right now (the U.S. being one).

I'm sure that by "small" you mean "small minded!

As long as you're kind hearted, and have respect for others, you are welcome in my home and in my Church as far as I'm concerned.

In regards to Christmas ornamentation, my opinion would be that the meaning of the decorations is in the mind of the beholder. If it means something pagan to you, then that is you. If it means something Christian to somebody else, then that's him.

Heck, I belong to a religion that doesn't even believe that Christ was born on Dec 25! We celebrate along with everyone else, though. As far as I'm concerned, it's all in the attitude.

Screeeech!!! · Post by **Screeeech!!!** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:03 pm

shadeclan wrote:If you have nothing against the belief in Santa Claus, then why did you bring it up? You seem to have no difficulty expressing feelings that you say are impossible to have.

I never said the belief in Santa doesn't exist. Try reading what i'm saying properly instead of inventing your own meanings and twisting my words.

And i didn't bring Santa up, the OP brought it up if you care to read the thread properly.

shadeclan wrote:Don't you think that, perhaps, people give you no presents out of respect for your beliefs? That would be my motivation in so doing.

Ah, always an excuse. So all the christians who have for the best part of 2000 years shown absolutely no respect or tolerence for any Pagan religion whatsoever, slaughtering millions of us in the name of Jesus, now claim that they refrain from the selfless giving of presents to us because they do respect and tolerate us.

Isn't this having one's cake and eating it?

shadeclan wrote:Nobody had given me an expensive sportscar either, but I don't think that they are being selfish.

It may simply be a matter of attitude that you don't see any selfless people around. Why, right here on this board, I saw messages from Jerry Freeman where he agreed to give away a bunch of whistles to two teenage girls who were just learning to whistle so that they could give them out to their friends.

If you feel left out during the Christmas season, I'm sure that there are kind people right here on this board who would be delighted to send you a little something - heck, I'll even pitch in !

Again, you're putting words in that i didn't say. I never said anyone was selfish, so why you have to bring that word into the debate is questionable.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. I'll believe christmas is about selfless giving when i start receiving gifts without and preconditions or thoughts from the giver as to what they'll get back in return.

Feadin wrote:I bet it doesn't really matter what you say (being pagan and all that), but HOW you say it
Selfless giving doesn't mean giving to someone you don't like

How am i supposed to say i'm a Pagan, other than "I'm a Pagan"?

And how is it possible to dislike people if you're truly selfless?

dfernandez77 wrote:Personally I never looked for a spirit of selfless giving in others. Seems to put a whole reversal thing on the selflessness.

Personally, i never looked for a spirit of selfless giving in others either. I simply had the concept preached at me by shadeclan and i'm simply disputing the idea that it exists.

Feadin · Post by **Feadin** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:12 pm

Screeeech!!! wrote:
Feadin wrote:I bet it doesn't really matter what you say (being pagan and all that), but HOW you say it
Selfless giving doesn't mean giving to someone you don't like
How am i supposed to say i'm a Pagan, other than "I'm a Pagan"?

And how is it possible to dislike people if you're truly selfless?

I'm not talking about words, I'm talking about feeling. And a truly selfless person is like a mirror, you'll only see your own reflection.

But anyway, it's not a big deal... and I believe we're getting off-topic

canpiper · Post by **canpiper** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:14 pm

Screeeech!!! wrote: Ah, always an excuse. So all the christians who have for the best part of 2000 years shown absolutely no respect or tolerence for any Pagan religion whatsoever, slaughtering millions of us in the name of Jesus, now claim that they refrain from the selfless giving of presents to us because they do respect and tolerate us.

Isn't this having one's cake and eating it?

Hey Screeeeech, I've never met a 2000 year old christian...In fact, I've never met a Christian who has slaughtered a pagan either. You hang in some wild crowds man. I don't think I'd want to go to your high school...

Don't you folks think this is getting a little too serious? Wasn't this supposed to be about whistles people want?

I repeat: Abell Low G please!

shadeclan · Post by **shadeclan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:24 pm

To Screech:

My apologies. It was never my intention to insult or upset you or preach to you, only to express my own feelings on the subject and on your comments. I also apologize if I misunderstood what you meant - the English language is not known for its precision and I am not known for my communication skills.

I am both unable and unwilling to justify the persecution of pagans by Christians, nor are you, I'm sure, willing to justify the persecution of Christians by pagans. Would I have participated in such persecution? I hope that I am a person of better character than that.

Most Christians don't consider members of my church Christians anyway and we have recieved our heap of abuse. We have also committed some abuse, so members of my church can't be considered "angels" either.

Feadin wrote:But anyway, it's not a big deal... and I believe we're getting off-topic

Feadin is right. If you wish, we can continue our discussion on another forum. If you want to set something up, just post a link to it on this forum and I'll get back to you - I promise.

edited 20 Dec 2005 @4:45 EST
Of course, if you wish to drop it, that's fine too. I'll also be more careful in the future concerning my responses.

Dee Whistler · Post by **Dee Whistler** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:28 pm

Screeeech!!! wrote: It's actually impossible to have something against something that doesn't exist.

I'm refreshing my memory and think that philosopher Meinong thought that things can exist, SUBSIST and not exist. So everything that is creation of imagination or something similar (Santa (sorry for the hard believers), dragons, martians etc.) does SUBSIST, but does not exist. However, these things exist "more" than things that does not exist at all.

I like this philosophy, cause it gives me a great excuse in many things. For example I can say that the truth that I CAN play tin whistle at least subsists.

The best whistle for christmas would be one that plays nicely and does not disturb any neighbours and pleases my wife.

breandan · Post by **breandan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:28 pm

I doubt if anyone gives a monkey's about the existence or otherwise of Santa. I do, however, think that it is nice for my kids when they are small to have a measure of majoc in their little lives.

I read them Hans Christian Anderson but I don't expect them to believe in the troll under the bridge for much past 8 years of age.

The nice thing about Christmas - and I say this as a confirmed atheist - is the delight in giving one another a little joy.

We don't make a big deal of the monetary value of the pressies and we limit the number and value they get.

If there were no christmas then I guess we would invent one like mothers' and fathers' days - so lets just call it 'giving day'.

I'm giving a set of Syn whsitles by Erle Bartlett to my wee 10 year old, who thinks they are reallu cool.

If that brings some joy into his life then I for one am up for it.

shadeclan · Post by **shadeclan** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:39 pm

breandan wrote:I doubt if anyone gives a monkey's about the existence or otherwise of Santa. I do, however, think that it is nice for my kids when they are small to have a measure of majoc in their little lives.

I read them Hans Christian Anderson but I don't expect them to believe in the troll under the bridge for much past 8 years of age.

The nice thing about Christmas - and I say this as a confirmed atheist - is the delight in giving one another a little joy.

We don't make a big deal of the monetary value of the pressies and we limit the number and value they get.

If there were no christmas then I guess we would invent one like mothers' and fathers' days - so lets just call it 'giving day'.

I'm giving a set of Syn whsitles by Erle Bartlett to my wee 10 year old, who thinks they are reallu cool.

If that brings some joy into his life then I for one am up for it.

Hear Hear!!

dfernandez77 · Post by **dfernandez77** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:57 pm

breandan wrote:I'm giving a set of Syn whsitles by Erle Bartlett to my wee 10 year old, who thinks they are reallu cool.

If that brings some joy into his life then I for one am up for it.

Huzzah my friend, Huzzah!

Screeeech!!! · Post by **Screeeech!!!** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 3:12 pm

breandan wrote:I read them Hans Christian Anderson but I don't expect them to believe in the troll under the bridge for much past 8 years of age.

Now trolls did actually exist. They're the same race as pixies and lived alongside modern humans for over 10,000 years. Under the ground, in holes, caves and the like.

Dee Whistler · Post by **Dee Whistler** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:56 am

Screeeech!!! wrote: Now trolls did actually exist. They're the same race as pixies and lived alongside modern humans for over 10,000 years. Under the ground, in holes, caves and the like.

Oh trolls, they exist today! And in my experience they nowadayes live in the mirrors every morning.