I dont even know the things I know!

[djm]

Buddhu, that is very well explained, and I do not disagree with you that pursuit of material possessions for the purpose of merely having them is a waste of time and energy. What I object to is the assumption that everybody who has lots of possessions is trapped by them; that they only acquire this stuff for the purpose of acquiring.

That's like saying, "you can only read one book at a time, so you are only allowed to own one book", or, "you can only listen to one CD at a time, so you are only allowed to own one CD", or", "you can only play one whistle at a time, so you can only have one whistle". Whether I re-read the book a day from now or ten years from now is immaterial to me. I've got it, and I know where it is (well ... approxiamately) so that when I do want it, it is still there, and not gone out of print, or having to hunt for it on eBay.

When I am not thinking about any particular stuff its as if it doesn't exist to me. I don't see it. Its not there. When I have a use for it, it is there. That's the beauty of stuff. If my stuff is so bad, why do others want to borrow it, or copy it, or steal it? Stuff is like fruit on a tree, there to be used when in season, ignored the rest of the year.

One of my favourites - Who would sleep on the floor when he could have a bed?

djm

[Unseen122]

The only material objects that can make you happy through their accumulation are whistles.

And Flutes.

[buddhu]

djm: I think it's often hard to identify where the position you quite reasonably describe ends and where that less healthy attitude observed by Susan and Cran begins.

I expect many of the grasping, acquisitive, insecure people in this world would have difficulty putting their finger on the point where modest comfort and convenience went all Frankenstein on them, and turned into rampaging greed.

Too much of society is geared to this Orwellian consumerism where it is seen as a desirable thing to be a locust.

Ah well, back to me hut...

[buddhu]

The only material objects that can make you happy through their accumulation are whistles.

And Flutes.

And guitars and mandolins and banjos...
Bah, there goes the integrity of my argument

[Cynth]

I know many people who feel they have too much stuff. It's generally stuff they needed at one time, for school, to learn something, an interest, etc. And then it's hard to get rid of when one's interests or situation changes and it piles up. It is a real problem, but not one that was caused by greed really.

I don't think I know any people are who are greedy and insanely aquisitive. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I just haven't met them. Perhaps I have unknowingly and somehow sensed they weren't my type. I guess people with tons of extra money could be like that, but I don't know any of those people. I have certainly heard of many people getting into trouble with credit cards, but it seems like an awful lot of people don't spend money that way either.

Advertising I guess could make it seem as though what we are meant to do is spend and acquire constantly. But that's just advertising. I don't think everyone does what advertisers want them too.

some of the most content people I have met have little and live in Guyana. I pray they come to appreciate what they have and don’t envy us - we have more stuff, but are not necessarily richer or happier because of it.

If they are content, then do they not appreciate what they have now? It doesn't seem like they would envy us if they are content.

[buddhu]

...I don't think I know any people are who are greedy and insanely aquisitive...

Ah, then I'd guess you've not worked in a high-pressure sales or marketing environment

I know many people who feel they have too much stuff. It's generally stuff they needed at one time, for school, to learn something, an interest, etc. And then it's hard to get rid of when one's interests or situation changes and it piles up. It is a real problem, but not one that was caused by greed really.

Yes, that probably accounts for most of it, but I know a lot of my junk is stuff I never needed, nor even wanted all that badly. I just bought on a whim. Pointless. I have been a sufferer from "Ooh, look! Me want!" syndrome.

[Cynth]

...I don't think I know any people are who are greedy and insanely aquisitive...

Ah, then I'd guess you've not worked in a high-pressure sales or marketing environment

This is definitely true. And good I guess!

I know many people who feel they have too much stuff. It's generally stuff they needed at one time, for school, to learn something, an interest, etc. And then it's hard to get rid of when one's interests or situation changes and it piles up. It is a real problem, but not one that was caused by greed really.

Yes, that probably accounts for most of it, but I know a lot of my junk is stuff I never needed, nor even wanted all that badly. I just bought on a whim. Pointless. I have been a sufferer from "Ooh, look! Me want!" syndrome.

Well, I think we all (who have some extra money) have a bit of that . But when I've seen (and experienced) this, it has still been on a relatively small scale. I guess I would call it more silly than greedy. It doesn't seem the same as building your life around acquiring things. They are just goofy mistakes that everyone makes. I guess actually my mother had some cousins who were of this other type. They had a gold Cadillac! My parents did not think very highly of that, I'll tell you!

[susnfx]

Here's a wrench thrown into the works for your thoughts:

I watched a documentary on a tribe somewhere on the Amazon who are completely oblivious to the 21st century, the outside world. The head of the government agency in the country (can't recall the country) who handles the native tribes wants to keep them isolated and has marked off their territory as an area where no development can occur and no one can go without permission. He's one of the very few outsiders who have visited the tribe and apparently takes his life in his hands each time he goes; several people have been killed for entering their territory and he defends this action. (I'm putting a very complicated situation into as few words as possible...) On the face of it, leaving them alone to live their simple lives seems to be the noble thing to do, but then you realize that they are also without many of the good things of modern life - medicine, for instance. Are they really better off living as they do, in isolation and without any modern conveniences?

Susan

[susnfx]

Cynth, I'm amazed that you've only "heard of" people overusing credit cards. I know many, many who do. Any line of credit they can get, they get. Any credit card offered to them is accepted. I have relatives who are so deeply in debt they'll never get out, and I work with some folks who are in the same situation. Most of them are in two-income households, certainly not in poverty, who use the credit to furnish homes, buy "toys", etc. They owe several banks, several credit card companies, furniture stores, and on and on. It's a way of life to many people I know - and I think it's extremely common.

Susan

[Cynth]

I don't know why I don't know them either. I've known people who have told me about people they knew who got in big trouble, but I just haven't met them. Or maybe I have and just didn't know it---I might not have gotten to know them well enough. I don't have many relatives---that could explain that aspect of it . It does seem sort of strange to me too, because I've read about the problem. I am older, so I don't know if that would have something to do with it.

It sounds like such a scary way of life to me, not to have money in the bank. I am very into saving---I guess that could be called being greedy too really. We have a nice income and all that we need and more, but we take saving money really seriously. We both come from families who went through the Depression and being careful with money was a real big thing. Maybe people sense that we aren't the type to go out on the town very often or something! Although I don't think we would be called miserly or anything.

[Nanohedron]

There's nothing wrong with liking stuff. I like my stuff, too. The continual grasping after a growing material status is another thing entirely. This is utterly cliché, but I see the "wanting more upon more when you already have enough" thing to be a symptom of trying to make up for an internal deficit of some sort. It isn't limited to Western, First-World societies, either.

Of course, this sort of thing does not apply to instruments.

[perrins57]

If they are content, then do they not appreciate what they have now? It doesn't seem like they would envy us if they are content.

Ok this is going to be difficult to explain. In my experience, the people I met in Guyana seemed more content with their lot than most British or American people I know (who have a much higher standard of living). The trouble is they are sold a vision of the western world (largely through the TV) that is fake and leads them to think we are all wealthy and happy and lead better lives and live in better societies. They don't see our crime (particularly the gun culture in the US) the fact that we have poor people as well and that you can get sued if you put a foot wrong. They think we have perfect health care - just ask any American who has been refused health insurance! - they don't know about our high divorce rate, obesity, teenage pregnancy rates, drug abuse, all this doesn't get reported on their TV's. They dont envy our actual way of life, they envy what they think it is!

[Cynth]

If they are content, then do they not appreciate what they have now? It doesn't seem like they would envy us if they are content.

They dont envy our actual way of life, they envy what they think it is!

This helped me understand what you meant. I think you explained it quite well. I think probably I think our lives are better than you do---but that's okay, I do understand what you mean about the bad parts. I don't know how many people that come here end up feeling they are better off. That would be an interesting thing to read about. I suppose they are better off in some ways and worse off in others. I don't know how many would do it again.

[Nanohedron]

Yes, now things are clear. Mark, did you speak about this with any of the people around you when you were in Guyana?

[Cynth]

I just want to amend what I said. I know that I have a much better life in terms of safety, medical care, etc., than many, if not most, of the people in my country. And I know that most of the people coming here will not be having it so good.

Quite a number of people have been coming to Iowa and they are living in sort of medium sized towns where I think, at least, they are not disappearing into huge scary neighborhoods where they become invisible. I know they have to take jobs that no one else will do. I don't know how they feel about things in the long run though. There has been unfriendliness toward them (an English is the official language bill was passed) but there has also been some friendliness and real efforts made on the part of the police in some towns to get to know the different customs and to try to avoid misunderstandings.