Round embouchure

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:11 pm

Denny wrote:
I.D.10-t wrote:Man you are quick with that submit button! I was in the middle of editing a post and you answered!
He is isn't he...
...and prolific.

Man, that is cool. The flutes on sale?

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:13 pm

I.D.10-t wrote: Selling R&Rs? Hmmmm...

We'll see how things work out.

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 3:43 pm

Unseen122 wrote:
I.D.10-t wrote:

Selling R&Rs? Hmmmm...

We'll see how things work out.

Well, if they do I know someone going the other direction (with a nice loud Healy (Pratten style) 6-key...........)

(and how do you get this quote thing to work ?)

Edit: Ahhhh..that's better!

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:20 pm

Another thing after spending a little more time on my M&E which has a more rectangular/oval embochure I realized that the problem might be the embochure. I still like more power, I am trying to arrange a trade for that Hammy Doc Jones has that will have the power I want

I wouldn't be able to put in the needed cash for a 6 key, I also might be trading it back to the previous owner for a Hernon as that is oval. Well if it does go on sale I will not be able to put any thing up here because I have used up my one per month so if yous guys have any intrest in it just give me a PM. So I don't really like round holes myself and I like to lean into a Flute.

chas · Post by **chas** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:31 pm

The shape of the embouchure on the Hammy isn't all that different from that of your typical Rudall. When I measured the embouchures on all my flutes (I believe this included the M&E), they all came in about the same except for my Bleazey Rudall, which, believe it or not, was a little bigger. They were all the same length (along the length of the flute, within less than a mm), but the Bleazey was 1-2 mm wider. The specifics of the cut may be, I don't have a good enough eye for that.

If we're talking elliptical/oval vs. modern/rectangular, what I've found is that, yes, you can push the modern cut a little harder, but it's much less versatile and has less depth of character. (My wife, a lifelong Boehm player who's recently taken up simple-system flute, agrees.)

Terry McGee · Post by **Terry McGee** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:46 pm

I.D.10-t wrote:Am I the only one that likes a round embouchure?
”Oh it is too hard, it doesn’t have volume, etc…”

The round embouchure died out in the early 19th century, to be replaced by the elliptical, and not long after (possibly 1832?) the rectangular came along. It finally achieved supremacy in the classical music world, while elliptical remains the norm in the Irish music world and circular in the Early Music world.

I'd be interested in hearing from those who like the circular - what do they enjoy about it? It's tempting to pose some specific questions, but too much danger of leading the witness.

I'd also be interested in hearing how you reached the decision, and what diameter of circular you favour. And undercut or straight-sided?

I'm making a baroque flute with an 8.5mm - 11/32" - circular embouchure - I'm sure you wouldn't get far in Irish music with that!

"Hey you - the guy miming on the fancy chair leg .... outa here. Now!"

Terry

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:59 pm

Naah! They'd think you buggered up a recorder !

flutefry · Post by **flutefry** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:28 pm

I've played the baroque flute for years (small circular embouchure), and am just taking up the Irish flute. My baroque flute (Folkers and Powell after Thomas Lot circa 1720) has a very undercut embouchure. When I go back to it now after playing an Irish flute with an elliptical embouchure, the baroque embouchure seems tiny. However, I don't have a difficulty switching back and forth. I find it easier to keep my lips in the same position on the Irish flute (tactile feedback from the larger hole). I started out thinking that I had to use two different embouchures (more relaxed for baroque, tighter for Irish), but find that I am now using a more relaxed embouchure for both, and get the reedy sound I like by turning in the head joint more for the Irish flute, and leaving it lined up with the finger holes for baroque.

My two cents is that it is easier to vary the tone colour with the elliptical embouchure than the circular. This isn't just a matter of there being less room for error with the smaller hole in my opinion, because to play the baroque flute in tune requires a lot of tipping the head/rolling flute joint, which changes the angle of the airstream a lot, without changing the tone colour very much.

Hugh

Hugh

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:42 pm

My only experience with circular is the Tipple.
It certainly doesn't want for volume! Great
street flute.

Also there is the sense of being able to 'get a piece'
of the embouchure hole, which I enjoy.

No knowing whether what I'm experiencing
is the circular hole or the other features
of Doug's flutes. So far, anyhow, I have
no complaint with circular embouchure
holes. Good strong interesting tone.

It would be interesting to play a good
conical wooden flute with one.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:51 pm

Trust me Jim it changes every thing.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:19 pm

Terry McGee wrote:I'm making a baroque flute with an 8.5mm - 11/32" - circular embouchure - I'm sure you wouldn't get far in Irish music with that!

"Hey you - the guy miming on the fancy chair leg .... outa here. Now!"

Terry

I once had an old German flute with a smallish round embouchre. I had Pat Olwell whittle a new hole in it and the change was just phenomenal.

I've lately had a couple of Terry's different headjoints around and been experimenting a bit. It's remarkable how different they are. All great though.

Doc

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:23 pm

Here is a round Embouchure...

Actually I got it to practice re-padding keys!

talasiga · Post by **talasiga** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:52 pm

In my experience it is good to have at least one round embouchure flute. It is therapeutic and may improve your attack with other embouchures.
The Tipple round embouchure has done wonders for my ability with the elliptical ones on other flutes.

When my embouchure feels not quite right I take respite in a round emb. for five minutes or so and then move back to the other one. Its quite miraculous.

I cannot offer you a technical explanation. Just my experience.

I.D.10-t · Post by **I.D.10-t** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:13 pm

I am not an accomplished player, but I must say that after I received a round embouchure instrument I really started to learn to play. The round embouchure is more difficult and shows mistakes very quickly. It is also more flexible. It allows you to change pitch. I do feel that the rounded rectangular allows you too much room without any benefit other than the ability to be sloppy. With my rectangular embouchure Healy, I hit a brick wall. The Peeler fife helped me go beyond that (yes I realize that their bore size is different).

So maybe the thing is that a round hole is just a teaching instrument, or maybe it is something that only a good player can play.

dunnp · Post by **dunnp** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 12:39 am

I like the embouchure on my lehart which is sort of diamond shaped. I have played other flutes by him that don't respond in the same way. Also I noticed only recently that when I play this flute the stream of condensation is in a definate right-ward pattern as if I;m playing the flute to the right too much. different than any other flute.

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