Slip Jigs, help!

[Eldarion]

Perhaps there is some confusion between rhythm (beat) and phrasing. I suggested using 123123 for the beat. Peter's write-up is about phrasing. In fact, its an excelent example of phrasing - for that particular tune. The same phrasing could not be used in a 6/8 tune that went | !sl G3 GED | !sl A3 AB-c | BA G A^FD | G AB GED | etc.

Rather I think the confusion is between beat and rhythm. There is no way you can separate the kind of micro-phrasing you use from the rhythm of a tune. They are tied together.

To paraphrase what was said on the tune transcription commentary, instead of thinking of jigs as "diddly diddly", think "diddly da dadum diddly da". It is a basic phasing pattern that works for many jig passages and definitely adds more lift to your rhythm than visualising the notes as 2 rhythmically identical triplet groups - the way they are written on paper is not reflective of how they are played. Then listen to good players with clear phrasing, listening to when the pattern is reenforced and when it is deviated from.

___________________________________

.....
There's where the part about listening with open ears comes handy...

.........

Cynth, how come this fella keeps saying things to me that are meant for you? Hmm?

No dear, that was for you. Acting delusional isn't too becoming of you... or is it?

[Cynth]

Okay, that is helpful to have a basic pattern that might be used in jig passages---well I guess we had it before, but maybe the syllables help. I am listening to good players so I should be able to start distinguishing some differences. I will clap them both and say them to get the distinction clear. Because of other situations with "triplets" it is hard to think of them in another way. Thanks everyone.

[colomon]

To paraphrase what was said on the tune transcription commentary, instead of thinking of jigs as "diddly diddly", think "diddly da dadum diddly da".

I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to say here -- I can't parse that second phrase into anything resembling a jig.

I know I still have a lot to learn, but I've been learning jigs by ear for several years now, from sessions and from recordings of people like Peter Horan and Andy McGann. Maybe I subconsciously do what you're describing, but I can't make any conscious connection between what you're saying and the jigs I hear and play.

[djm]

Acting delusional isn't too becoming of you... or is it?

I think maybe someone's got his Mr. Grumpy face on today. Come on, Mr. Grumpy. How 'bout a little smile for the kids?

Holy sh*t! He ate the kid!!! Relax, dude! Jeez, take a pill or somethin'!

djm

[Eldarion]

Diddly da dadum | diddly da

The | denotes where the bar would end if you were looking at it from a sheet music perspective. The ending "dadum" is like a pair of leading notes into the next "diddly" though.

Listening is still the best way to understand it though, so you may or may not already have it subconsciously.

[Eldarion]

Acting delusional isn't too becoming of you... or is it?

I think maybe someone's got his Mr. Grumpy face on today. Come on, Mr. Grumpy. How 'bout a little smile for the kids?

Oh you read that totally wrong. I meant all that with smile... maybe I should have used one of them smiley thingies...

[talasiga]

.......
To accompany the tune properly however you would work round this basal rhythm, which is where you would take the phrasing into account.

Yes. A cross cultural yes. Bilkul, Io, Si et Oui.

In my "frame of reference (non ITM)" the percussionist may "work round" this a little differently to the dancer and to the melodist but still accord with the "basal rhythm". From my listening there are varying degrees of this in the various traditions and I discern it in ITM. So what do the ITM experts say about this in user friendly language and without finger pointing and xenophobic posturing? Could Fishie's drummer friend have been interpreting the rhythm nicely but a little too expertly for Fishie? Was Fishie's drummer friend stretching the boundaries of "working round" to a point where it may be not acceptable in ITM?

All these questions can and must be answered!

[colomon]

Diddly da dadum | diddly da

The | denotes where the bar would end if you were looking at it from a sheet music perspective. The ending "dadum" is like a pair of leading notes into the next "diddly" though.

Is there any difference between that and the 12|123 1 pattern that Talasiga posted, other than you inexplicably leave the initial pickup notes of the pattern off?

Seems to me the patterns with one eighth note pickup -- 1|123 12 1|123 12 1|, 1|123 123|123 12 1|, etc -- are a lot more common in the tunes in the tunes I play.

[Eldarion]

Diddly da dadum | diddly da

The | denotes where the bar would end if you were looking at it from a sheet music perspective. The ending "dadum" is like a pair of leading notes into the next "diddly" though.

Is there any difference between that and the 12|123 1 pattern that Talasiga posted, other than you inexplicably leave the initial pickup notes of the pattern off?

I don't believe Tal proposed a 12|123 1 pattern for a jig pattern in this thread. He merely paraphrased Peter Laban as having done so.
_____________________________________

In my "frame of reference (non ITM)" the percussionist may "work round" this a little differently to the dancer and to the melodist but still accord with the "basal rhythm". From my listening there are varying degrees of this in the various traditions and I discern it in ITM. So what do the ITM experts say about this in user friendly language and without finger pointing and xenophobic posturing? Could Fishie's drummer friend have been interpreting the rhythm nicely but a little too expertly for Fishie? Was Fishie's drummer friend stretching the boundaries of "working round" to a point where it may be not acceptable in ITM?

All these questions can and must be answered!

From reading your questions it is obvious that you're still trying to force Irish music to fit into ill-fitting paradigms from other musical genres, without bothering to understand it for what it is.


Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

[talasiga]

.......
From reading your questions it is obvious that you're still trying to force Irish music to fit into ill-fitting paradigms from other musical genres, without bothering to understand it for what it is.


.......

If you read my questions with an open teacup (er, I mean, mind) you might cognise that I am asking guidance from those who know about Irish music. My only condition was that the answers be reader friendly, not finger pointing and avoid xenophobic posturing.

I, too, read those enlightening Oriental tales when I was a 14 year old. Unfortunately life has caught up with me and I am not as wise as I used to be. I am sure a young fella like you has no prejudice towards me seeing as you have come here with your empty tea cup.

[Eldarion]

you might cognise that I am asking guidance from those who know about Irish music.

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

[talasiga]

Please do not concern yourself with the spilt tea. The overflowing cup is still a full cup. No matter how much you empty the tea cup it will only ever hold one cup of tea.

....
1 2 3 4 | 1 2 | 1 2 3 ||

.........................

as a possible slipjig - i.e. (double) jig and a half - rhythm pattern which implies a (double) jig
1 2 3 4 | 1 2

Does anyone know, or has anyone ever suggested such a double jig pattern in ITM ? Hmm?


(My cup overfloweth!)

[Fishie]

And thus the finger-pointing begins.

I, for one, and sorry that I replied to this post, with what knowledge I had, in an attempt at helpfulness. I realize now that, with my limited experience with trad, the topic would have been better left to those more knowledgeable than me. Though I tempered my response with a bit of a disclaimer about my classical background, I should have just left the post off entirely.

Please excuse my mistake, Fishie, and I wish you the best in your quest for slip-jiggedy-ness.

I just hope that one day I'll have something useful to offer this great big world.

All advice is welcome, even if it does come from the classical. One can learn a lot by peeking outside the box every now and then.

:)

[Fishie]

This is exactly it. I was merely trying to tell fishie where to tap her foot--

*ahem* but Fishie be a "he" , lol! What, is it the prurple crochet avatar?

[Joseph E. Smith]

This is exactly it. I was merely trying to tell fishie where to tap her foot--

*ahem* but Fishie be a "he" , lol! What, is it the prurple crochet avatar?

Probably... but for the life of me I can't see why.

Slip jig: 9/8 time.... think of it as "ya-diddey ya-diddey, ya-diddey" per measure.

Double jig: 6/8 time... think of it as "ya-diddy, yadiddy" per measure.

.... may help some.