Is copper safe?

[Hoovorff]

Is copper safe as a mouthpiece material? I read somewhere that's it's not a great idea to have copper in your mouth. Made me wonder about my Elfsong whistle.

Does anyone have any information on this? Just hearsay?

Thanks, Jeanie

[Wanderer]

Is copper safe as a mouthpiece material? I read somewhere that's it's not a great idea to have copper in your mouth. Made me wonder about my Elfsong whistle.

Does anyone have any information on this? Just hearsay?

Thanks, Jeanie

This topic comes up about once every year and a half or so.

I used to have a huge several-page document written up that talked about copper salts, poisoning tests, national healh information and stuff. I had one for aluminum too.

Now, I just say: People cook out of copper and aluminum pots, drink from aluminum cans, and copper pipe is used for water.

I figure all of thse are likely to give you more exposure to copper and aluminum than a whistle.

[OBrien]

I have looked into this, because my whistles are made of copper. I think it's like other allergies- some people are sensitive to certain plants, animals or foods and they must avoid exposure to them. Some people also react to contact with certain metals. If wearing jewellry made of a certain metal gives you a rash, you avoid that metal. Some folks can't wear stainless steel earrings because of the nickel they contain. If a certain whistle gives you a lip rash, avoid that whistle. As far as ingestion goes, I agree with Greg- you get a lot more copper and aluminum from water pipes and cooking pots. You may get a tiny amount if you clear your windway by sucking- your acidic saliva dissolves metals a little better than water does. This can be avoided by covering your window and blowing, instead.

[andymac]

Aluminium is a neurotoxin and has been proven to cause various irreversible neurological conditions. Unfortunately it is tricky stuff to avoid. Major sources are tap water (the purification process uses aluminium sulphates) , aluminium pans (especially when cooking acidic foods), deodorant, etc, etc.


Its also a possible cause of Alzheimers - but i forget where i read that.

Maybe this is another argument for sticking with the old Generations

[Lambchop]

Aluminium is a neurotoxin and has been proven

Ummm, no, I don't believe it has been, at least not to the extent of being proven to cause Alzheimer's.

This was a theory a long time ago, it never held water at the time, and was later shown not to be the case, but conspiracy theorists and pseudo-science sorts have continued to harp on it.

Yes, huge quantities of aluminum in dialysis fluids, etc., are toxic. Huge ingested or inhaled quantities are toxic, as well.

But that doesn't mean that aluminum in cooking utensils is going to poison you, because so little actually gets into the food when used properly.

No, you should not store acidic foods in your aluminum utensils or wrap acidic foods in aluminum foil, because that is not a proper use. In those circumstances, excessive amounts of aluminum do leach into the food.

Look at it this way . . . if you're willing to ingest buffered aspirin or antacids containing aluminum . . . check the labels in your bathroom cabinet, folks . . . then you're getting far, far more than you'd ever get from a pot.

[andymac]

Aluminium

Introduction
Aluminium, although present in much of the Eath's surface has no known biological function and is not considered essential to the diet. It is the third most abundant element in the Earth's crust, comprising 8% of the total (only oxygen, 49.5% and silicon, 26% being more common). The main uses of aluminium are in engineering, transport, manufacture of household utesils and packaging. It is also used in medicines and anti-perspirants and as a clearing agent in water processing.

Clinical Significance And Indications
Aluminium is known to be neurotoxic and is has been proven that there is no safe limit for aluminium in dialysis water because even at concentrations < 0.1 mg/L, dementia may occur with time. Due to the causation of dementia in patients on haemodialsis and the presence of aluminium in the core of fibrillary tangles and plaques in Alzheimer's disease, it is now a common theory that aluminium consumption is an aetiologic factor in the causation of senile dementia, especially Alzheimer's disease. It has even been suggested that dementia could be made less common by diminishing population intake of aluminium. Further adverse effects of excessive aluminium load in patients on dialysis include bone disorders (osteomalacia, dialysis osteodystrophy), and microcytic anaemia.


sources:BMC; Cooke(91)

I think the jury is still out on the Alzheimers link - but neurotoxic yes

keep on whistling

[Crevan]

Certain metals can be toxic to people. However, it is very difficult to ingest enough of it to do any significant harm by playing a whistle. I would be more worried about other health concerns.

[Chiffed]

Horrible stuff, all of it. Send me all your whistles, promptly. Save your life, I will!

[brewerpaul]

Aluminium

Clinical Significance And Indications
Aluminium is known to be neurotoxic and is has been proven that there is no safe limit for aluminium in dialysis water because even at concentrations < 0.1 mg/L, dementia may occur with time.

True story-- we had a family friend who was a serious diabetic and was on heavy dialysis. This was back in the 60's which was before they knew much about the aluminum link to neurotoxicity. One day while on dialysis he simply went into a coma. It lasted well over a year as I recall. Somewhere during that period, someone made the connection between neuro function and aluminum and they switched his dialysis regimen. One day he opened his eyes and said to his wife "Oh, I must have dozed off...". He lived quite a few years longer with no return of symptoms.

[talasiga]

Aluminium is a neurotoxin and has been proven

Ummm, no, I don't believe it has been.

This was a theory a long time ago, it never held water at the time, and was later shown not to be the case, but conspiracy theorists and pseudo-science sorts have continued to harp on it.

I do not believe you can prove your assertions.

Of course I could be wrong about you and aluminium.
Actually I do not like the taste of any metal in my mouth.
None of my many whistles have a metal fipple, not even those with an aluminium barrel.

I trust my taste and have no need to prove it.

I don't know who BMC is but they sound pretty authoritative and what they say on copper may be relevant for this topic.

The Romans killed themselves with lead plumbing and they didn't know it.
I doubt if they could have poisoned themselves by playing a lead whistle. However, is there anyone here willing to play a lead whistle to prove anything at all?
Hmm?

Jee, I am glad I am a vegetarian and don't need to contend with pork chops and such on my plate.

[fearfaoin]

Actually I do not like the taste of any metal in my mouth.
I trust my taste and have no need to prove it.

I despise the taste of Brussel Sprouts. They are clearly poisonous.

Actually, that data is interesting. But exposure via dialysis is very different
from exposure via temporary mouth insertion. I mean, with dialysis, you're
replacing your blood with the stuff... Still, never hurts to be cautious,
if you're so inclined.

[talasiga]

.....
I despise the taste of Brussel Sprouts. They are clearly poisonous.
....

Precisely.
Doesn't matter how good it may be for you, if you eat something you don't enjoy, it will have poisonous effect.

I know I should have more protein in my diet but I just couldn't handle the thought of a lamb chop.

I actually prefer Brussel Sprouts to cabbage and cauliflower. I buy organic and never cook with aluminium utensils. I have close friends who smoke and drink. Some even eat chops. I do not kiss them.

I have considered installing an aluminium radiator in my car and copper is my favourite jwelerry metal over and above gold and silver.

[Lambchop]

Aluminium is a neurotoxin and has been proven

Ummm, no, I don't believe it has been.

This was a theory a long time ago, it never held water at the time, and was later shown not to be the case, but conspiracy theorists and pseudo-science sorts have continued to harp on it.

I do not believe you can prove your assertions.
.

Nobody can "prove" anything.

But, you're correct that I wasn't clear in my post. I edited it, so now it should be more clear.

It's a misplaced focus to worry about whether you might get too much aluminum from having your lips on an aluminum fipple if you're drinking soda out of aluminum cans, wrapping your lunch in aluminum foil, wearing deodorant containing aluminum chlorhydrate, taking aluminum-buffered aspirin, and using aluminum-containing antacids.

None of which even comes close to approximating the amount of aluminum that was used in some dialysis procedures, which was admittedly highly toxic.

I find it astonishing that people will obsess about the possible role of a nearly inert hard-anodized aluminum frying pan, thinking it might cause Alzheimer's, and completely miss the fact that those Alzheimer's patients smoked, drank to excess, sucked up vast quantities of nonprescription and prescription medication, inhaled gasoline fumes and combustion exhaust, cleaned their clothes in toxic chemicals, literally soaked their homes in insecticides and repellents, invented the whole concept of home furnishings which outgas plasticizers and other fumes, consumed nutritionally deficient substances as infants (except for the lead paint, of course), etc.

[tin tin]

I think you'd have to eat metal whistles for them to pose a risk. Although there's a guy in France who's eaten several bikes, cars, and even a Cesna airplane, and he still seems to be fine.

[anniemcu]

I think it is rather foolish to dismiss the possibility of problems with holding metals in the mouth. The mouth is a very direct route to the bloodstream, and certain medications are disolved in the mouth to ensure rapid delivery. The first stages of digestion are begun in the mouth with saliva starting the breakdown process. Also, dermatological contact, with the lips, fingers, and chin is not something to dismiss either. Anyone who has a contact alergy can tell you that.

As for Aluminum's toxicity, it is not just a whacko theory. There has been much to support the conclusions connecting aluminum with dementia, including Alzheimer's type. The fact that it is used very frequently in food storage containers, topically applied deodorants, and is prominent in cooking vessels and utensils does not mean there is not a threat. It just means that the threat is not commonly known, understood, or accepted by the commercial clientele of the products.

Lead based paints were still sold for some time after questions started being raised, but the threat from lead additives in gasoline, causing increased exposure in the polutant exhaust, the threat from lead in solder in the joints of water pipes, and the seals on food cans weren't recognized or acted on until much later... lead fipples in early whistles, and lead mouthpieces on old fifes and flutes now gives pause to people who would otherwise play them.

You don't have to be a conspiracy theorist to recognize a caution flag.