To tongue or not to ... ?

vomitbunny · Post by **vomitbunny** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:54 am

I keep hearing this debate. Considering that many flute and whistle players believe in not tounging at all, I am wondering how developed tounging technique is in the flute and whistle world. Just saying you tounge or don't is a pretty broad statement. There are a hundred shades of tounging. At least in the wind instrument world I came from there was. (brass and woodwind). Are we talking about hard tounging with a space? Soft legato tounging with no space. Ta? Da? La? As a trombone player, you are at a handicap when it comes to slurring and have to learn to make tounging sound like sluring. And no discussion on double and tripple tounging? I hear pros use the technique, but never see a discussion about it.
For the record I try to avoid tounging "most of the time". Say, 90%.
Certainly puncutally tounging the end of notes can sound amateurish and immature. It's often a problem with young (and sometimes older) players on other wind instrument. Some intuitively learn to stop the end of notes with others plod along forever tounging notes to an abrupt punctuation like some bizare musical speech impediment. I remember being taught in my second year of playing how notes could be cut off with the breath or throat, and when and where to do it.
If you are playing with a fiddler that is using a very tight puncutated style, bouncing multiple quick notes with space in between, would it not be right to use the double and triple tounging technique?
Sticking strictly to a formal style of not tounging when the instrument is fully capable of using tounging seems a bit one-trick-pony-ish.
(I think that's how they spell it) Or is it one-trick-pony-esque.
And don't talk to me about tradition. I eat Lucky charms every morning, wash with Irish Spring, get drunk and fight every night while singing Danny Boy. That's about as traditional as you can get.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:09 am

I find a use for tonguing when jumping octaves quickly, eg. Gravel Walks, and thats about it. IMO it's best to err on the side of not enough rather than too much, especially if coming from a classical woodwind.

Screeeech!!! · Post by **Screeeech!!!** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:32 am

I tongue a fair bit with the whistle as i like it - ex trumpet player. I can double and triple tongue but haven't found much use for it in what i'm playing on the whistle - "yet".

I've just started playing flute and haven't worked out how to tongue a note cleanly yet, i'm finding it difficult enough keeping notes going without putting my tongue in the way. I'm sure as soon as learn how to tongue notes cleanly on a flute i'll be doing it.

Trilling sounds nice on whistles and flutes as well.

Personally i think if you can make a piece of music sound nice by using a certain technique, then go ahead and use it. At the end of the day we should all play how we want to play. Music's much better without silly rules.

Eivind · Post by **Eivind** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:40 am

Hey,
there's a related thread here; with a specific example.
Bradhurley provides some to-the-point mp3 soundclips.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=30757

Cheers,
Eivind

belteshazzar · Post by **belteshazzar** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:16 am

I began my love of traditional music by playing military fife (a drummer by birth). The style emphasizes tonguing. I was told, by a very accomplished player, not to use glottal stops on this instrument. In fact, there are some good reasons not to use them on this instrument.

When I purchased my first D Flute, I was told by several accomplished players to avoid tonguing, use glottal stops sparringly and slur most notes. I felt like a novice slurring. I consider myself an accomplished and clean fifer, yet I was obviously using tonguing to cover crossing noises. I wish I could play the wonderful slurring passages and clean cuts and rolls I hear in my head.

What I am trying to say is this: make it a priority to learn new techniques, even if it isn't "in style", it will only help your playing in the long run. Play what you like to hear. Chances are others will like it too. Play for the people who listen, not other players. The people who created these traditions were radical in their day. You can't play for them. Learn from other players, stealing what you like best. It is really important to understand style and tradition when playing an instrument and interpreting music. Don't let that stop your learning and creating new traditions. (Learn the rules so you can learn the best way to break them).

If anyone gives you a hard time about tonguing, refer them to Brian Finnegan and Sarah Allen and have them listen to some Flook (www.flook.co.uk). Tell me that sounds amateurish.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:31 am

belteshazzar wrote:If anyone gives you a hard time about tonguing, refer them to Brian Finnegan and Sarah Allen and have them listen to some Flook (www.flook.co.uk). Tell me that sounds amateurish.

It doesn't sound amateurish at all, but it also doesn't sound traditional, and Brian Finnegan would be the first to say so. He knows how to play traditional-style Irish flute and I've heard him do it...the tonguing stuff is his own thing, and he's definitely playing "what he likes to hear." I enjoy listening to Brian and he's a musical genius; if that's the kind of style you like then by all means triple-tongue away. But if you're drawn toward the older traditional styles it's a good idea to learn how to articulate with glottal stops, it really is a different sound.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:18 pm

This seems to come up a lot and despite it being chewed over I'm only a little wiser. I listen to modern players and they seem to tongue- slow it down and it's plain, older players, Carty and others the same, Micho Russell tongues like mad! Grey Larson tells me to tongue in his tome. Others cry it's not traditional. I'm left with doing what I think sounds right for a tune using both where I fancy and not fussing to much as to whether I pass the Trad test (whatever that is)
Rob

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:35 pm

treeshark wrote:This seems to come up a lot and despite it being chewed over I'm only a little wiser. I listen to modern players and they seem to tongue- slow it down and it's plain, older players, Carty and others the same, Micho Russell tongues like mad! Grey Larson tells me to tongue in his tome. Others cry it's not traditional. I'm left with doing what I think sounds right for a tune using both where I fancy and not fussing to much as to whether I pass the Trad test (whatever that is)
Rob

I think it's a question of where and when rather than if. I know a few flute players who have been playing for a while, but come from a classical background. What oft happens is that they will use tonguing in lieu of more "traditional" ornaments such as cuts, rolls, and taps. It sounds . . . unlike dance tunes played in an "Irish" manner.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 12:41 pm

treeshark wrote: I'm left with doing what I think sounds right for a tune using both where I fancy and not fussing to much as to whether I pass the Trad test (whatever that is)
Rob

I agree, actually, and this is basically what I tell my flute students. You can find examples of excellent "traditional" players who tongue on the flute, although telling tonguing apart from glottal stops is not always easy.

Still, I think it's good to be able to do both. For me the reason to use glottal stops is less about trying to be"traditional" than about getting a particular sound and rhythmic pulse that I like.

treeshark · Post by **treeshark** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:14 pm

I try to think of tounging as just another note separator/accent mechanism along with glottals, slurs, taps and cuts rather than the default. Then they just become one other colour to your palette, I find I like to use glottal stops when I want push the tune along with the breath pulse, which I still find one of the hardest things to achieve... or occasionaly achieve in my case!
Since I come from many years of playing baroque music on the recorder I have had a lot of struggles in this area but now I have this strange tendancy to use taps in my Bach... and you know what? They sound fine!

michael_coleman · Post by **michael_coleman** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:27 pm

bradhurley wrote:
belteshazzar wrote:If anyone gives you a hard time about tonguing, refer them to Brian Finnegan and Sarah Allen and have them listen to some Flook (www.flook.co.uk). Tell me that sounds amateurish.
It doesn't sound amateurish at all, but it also doesn't sound traditional, and Brian Finnegan would be the first to say so. He knows how to play traditional-style Irish flute and I've heard him do it...the tonguing stuff is his own thing, and he's definitely playing "what he likes to hear." I enjoy listening to Brian and he's a musical genius; if that's the kind of style you like then by all means triple-tongue away. But if you're drawn toward the older traditional styles it's a good idea to learn how to articulate with glottal stops, it really is a different sound.

I noticed that in the Mad for Trad tutorial Brian Finnegan does that he really advocates tonguing for a much clearer tune. Are the Mad for Trad tutorials supposed to be teaching you traditional Irish music style or just to play the instrument? It may be quite misleading to beginning whistlers that they are learning the "traditional way" if they follow verbatim the Mad for Trad tutorial. I think there is even a section on triple tonguing. Mind you, I love Finnegan's style and glean as much as I can.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:32 pm

I would say certain tunes sound better with more or less toungeing like Polkas I like ot tounge quite a bit on Whistle but not on Flute now that I think about it.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:42 pm

michael_coleman wrote:I noticed that in the Mad for Trad tutorial Brian Finnegan does that he really advocates tonguing for a much clearer tune. Are the Mad for Trad tutorials supposed to be teaching you traditional Irish music style or just to play the instrument? It may be quite misleading to beginning whistlers that they are learning the "traditional way" if they follow verbatim the Mad for Trad tutorial. I think there is even a section on triple tonguing. Mind you, I love Finnegan's style and glean as much as I can.

Brian's tutorial is for whistles, there's no controversey about tonguing on the whistle. Triple-tonguing, well that's different, but what would a Brian Finnegan tutorial be without triple-tonguing?!

Anyway, looking at the list of tutors for Mad for Trad, I would class most of them as modern-style players anyway.