What are you for?

[ninjaaron]

Being critical is easy. Stating and standing up for what you believe in is harder and riskier and takes more courage.

Being critical of your own faults is the toughest thing in the world.

Being ignorant of them is the easiest.

Mukade

Very wise.

Will O'Ban

As a principle, yes, but incorrectly applied. I do love rhetoric. You see, it is a very good way to win an argument by making a wise statment that analgious to your situation, but cannot be directly applied when taken out of the abstract context and placed into the debate scenario. Let's call sh*t sh*t here.

It is not difficult at all to critisize authority figures, or external problems (I should know, I've done my share). Being ignorant of their faults quite easy as well (which I've probably also done). Being Critical of your personal being is more difficult.

Of course, standing up for what you actually believe in is the most difficult of all of the above things to do. I've done this, but not as often as I aught. It's really rather shameful.

Mukade's comment, while true in principle, really has nothing to do with dapple's priciple, which is eaqually true.

Of course, both parties are just spewing squishy ideas to gain credibility for agendas that are not related to the heart of the issue.

Some people like the way America works and some people don't. I don't, but it probably has nothing to do with either of the above issues, but rather is a result of my personal experiences and biases. Let's not fool ourselves into thinking we made up our own minds. That's stupid (with the exception that some opinions result more directly from selfishness, in which case we can take full credit for them).

Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I thought of one more thing to make America a better place:

If people would stop whining about it, and start trying to make a difference.

I'm done with all you political geniuses now, back to building flutes.

[dwinterfield]

So Dapple - When did you stop beating your wife? You're asking your question in a very belligerent manner but I detect a note of sincerity beneath the blind nationalistic fervor.

A few reactions.

I am a proud and patriotic American. Most of your questions dealt with foreign policy. Here's what I want us to do.

The US should participate in the world community as a wise partner and leader. I have no desire to rehash the run-up to Iraq, but I think our approach to Iraq prior to 9/11 is informative. Iraq was a country run by a brutal, sadistic dictator. His aggressive instincts had been blunted by the world community, lead by the US, through the UN, during and after Gulf War I. Iraq was isolated from the international community. It was regularly inspected for WMD and its WMD capacity was dismantled. Saddam ran a secular state and the Islamic fundamentalist terror community ignored him. While Saddam surely would have liked to export terror, he couldn't and didn't. As far as the rest of the world was concerned Iraq was isolated and alone. The US, working in partnership with the world community was successful. Good model. The current administration hated it. World community intervention to protect the Iraqi people from Saddam would have had my support.

Here are some other recent changes is the US that I think have been harmful.

Religious, political and cultural fundamentalism is a self-defeating simplistic answer to the complexities of the modern world. Many Americans are embracing it because it offers black and white answers to difficult questions. I'm perfectly comfortable with individuals who choose these belief systems to guide they're personal lives. I don't think they translate well into public policy. Not here and not in Iran or Iraq. As we people and a country, we need to cope better with the complexity of modern life and the real world.

US capitalism has moved toward a dramatic change in recent years. 80 yrs ago, the average CEO made 20X to 30X the income of the average worker. (These #s are examples. I’m not taking the time to look them up so forgive if they’re off a bit. The underlying point is accurate.) That was the norm from the industrial revolution to 20 yrs ago. Now the average CEO is making something like 2000X the income of the average worker. The "real" income (inflation adjusted earning power) has been declining since the 1980s. Bad trends.

Time to stop. The US really is the beacon of freedom for the world. Since WW2 through a combination of creativity, kindness, hard work and luck the US has done more to improve the quality of life of all on the planet. It continues to do so. When I criticize, I'm directing my comments toward specific people, not the country.

Are we best country on earth? I don’t have any idea. I know I wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. Frankly the whole concept of “best country on earth” strikes me as immature and divisive. Better to ask if we can do the most good, feed to most hungry, bring literacy to the most people, be the best stewards of the planet's environment, foster peace and justice throughout the world and be a better people by helping others even more. For the most part, the US does these things very well, but there is always room for improvement.

[anniemcu]

[... I was raised to believe that America stood for something far more noble than being the world's bully. But that is exactly what those right-wing phrases above remind me of: "This is my block," "Move it or lose it," "Get out of my way or I'll knock your head off," "Pay up or I'll clean your clock," "You're either with me or against me." To me, that is being unAmerican.

If you are so inclined, you can purchase a t-shirt with any of those slogans at this website: http://www.thoseshirts.com/tshirts.html

As for me, I think I'll just hang on to my money.

Will O'Ban

Go WillO! Go WillO!

I well remember the bumper sticker from the 70s - "America - Love it, or leave it!" I think "Love it and keep it honest!", or "Love it or Change it!" is more appropriate.

[dapple]

I agree that the slogan "America - Love it, or leave it!" is anti-American. One great aspect of the US governmental system and laws is that they are designed and meant to be changed by citizens through peaceful means.

The intent of my post was not to say that anyone's opinion is wrong (although I do disagree with many political opinions posted here and, regrettably, my disagreement apparently came across in my first post above and offended some members). On this board where its members post volumes about what they are against, I simply am asking for a different perspective, a short post: What would you support? What are you in favor of? What do you believe in?

[avanutria]

Here is my view as requested. I am not planning on debating any of these points publically, just sharing a personal perspective.

I am in favour of a country with a top priority of taking care of all of its citizens, regardless of where they live, how they live, how they were raised, their background or general health, and the choices they make. Ultimately, even when they make bad choices, they should be taken care of, though I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.

I would like to see my country understand that it is part of the world at large, for better or for worse, and that it is the responsibility of each country to prepare for the future. "The future" includes next year, next decade, next century and beyond. It involves investing in the health and education of its current and future citizens. It involves careful and conscientious management of natural resources and of waste products. Changing to such a status may result in short term discomfort or hard adjustments and a change of lifestyle on both personal and national scales. I believe it is worth the end result. I would like to see my country take a long-term view. I would also like to see it focus on this view at home before it tries to impact on other countries. (An exception to this might be if another country's government specifically asked for assistance.)

I would like to see more than two real choices for US President each election year. I would like to change the voting system so that voters who live in an area with a different dominant political view do not feel that their vote is "wasted". I would like to see a political 'race' where people don't vote for someone just to deprive the other candidate of their vote, but truly believe that that candidate is the right one to lead.

I would like to see an end to the growing belief that if someone speaks out against the direction of America or against its leaders, then that person is "Anti American". The people who speak out are the ones who are worried about the country and want to see it do well. The people who speak out but refuse to listen to anyone else's view (not necessarily agree, just listen) are of more concern to me.

I would like to increase the global understanding of the average American. It's a small planet, but it sure doesn't seem that way from inside the shopping malls and movie theatres in Anytown, USA. I would like to see the government provide a passport for every American, as free of charge as possible. Foreign travel is expensive enough without discouraging people at the first step. I would like to see the American educational system encourage a 'gap year' system like many other countries, so that an 18-year old high school graduate has some time to visit other countries and learn more about life, the world and themselves before having to commit themselves to a major or to a full time job.

I would like to see more industry and company leaders who are not giving themselves six figure salaries and bonuses while millions of people are struggling on minimum wage or less. I think whatever company kicks off a philosophy of "yeah, I'm the head of XYZ Corp but I make a reasonable wage - and so do all of my employees" will find customers and/or clients flocking to their doors. If they can manage to not give (only) themselves huge bonuses at that point, then I will be impressed.

No country is perfect. No citizens are perfect. I recognise that. I'm not asking for perfection.

What I am asking for is a country that we can be proud of. I want to be able to say "I'm an American" without feeling like I should add a apology afterward.

[Wormdiet]

I believe that those posters fairly would be labeled anti-American. I am sure that some would deny the anti-American label, saying that they are only interested in truth and honesty, that their criticism is only intended to make the US a better place, etc., etc. but, nevertheless, they quack like anti-American ducks. The rancor in their posts makes me think that those posters believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with the US. I find it very disheartening. And, of course, I’m directing my comments to jGilder, S1m0n, Blackwood, and their ideological soul mates who post here so loudly.

THe rhetoric above makes about as much sense as calling conservatives "anti-environment."

[BigDavy]

Hi avanutria

Be proud you are American and use that pride to help make the changes you wish to see.

David

[suejnnhe]

I would like to see more than two real choices for US President each election year.

Me too! I'm so frustrated with the limited choices realistically available to us. I'm for more people registering as independent and voting independently.

I'm for a country where everyone is taken care of because everyone takes care of their neighbor, rather than because the government passes laws.

I'm for personal responsibility. If our forefathers had spent their time complaining about the bad things that happened to them instead of doing the work and making the necessary sacrifices to change things, the USA wouldn't exist.

And I'm for democracy: "The worst form of government in the world....except for every other form"

Susan

[tansy]

the true anti-americans are the ones who bow to the corporations, thus putting the dollar over the well being of our enviroment and all basic moral responsabilities.

tansy

[flanum]

up the ra!
im up for sending volunteers over to columbia and teaching farc revolutionarys the fine art of incendiary bomb-making!
im also up for looking in the back of my wardrobe for the state of narnia!! "the lying old bitch in the wardrobe"!

Just read an irish reporters view on the superdome (or whatever its called)
in "Ireland on sunday"! she managed to breach the security and enter the dome!
i dont trust americans.......
what can i say??
but i still managed to touch the flowers!

[SteveShaw]

You can say disapproving things about certain American people or about the American government without having to be scared that you're going to be regarded as anti-American. I like American people generally. You don't get too many in the wilds of the Westcountry 'tis true, but the ones I've met (and no stereotype intended here) are warm, friendly and straightforward. I've bantered with hundreds on this and the harmonica forums and I love it. Calling someone anti-American because they happen to criticise some aspect of your nation, OK, maybe more than once, betrays a chip on your shoulder. If you were to criticise Tony Blair or Margaret Thatcher here, or the fact that we play proper games like cricket instead of rounders - I mean baseball (quick: ) - it wouldn't occur to me to think you were anti-British. I want to come to the USA and see your wonderful cities and natural wonders and experience your culture, many aspects of which are second to none, and I will when I get the chance. But I'm not going to be put off from saying, for example, that you have a lousy president who was lousy even when you voted him in for a second time, or that we've seen this week that, despite your world image as a rich nation, you have vast numbers of people who have been living in grinding poverty in the south. Am I anti-American? Were you to comment on this board about the serious race problem we have in our inner-city areas, or criticise Blair for being Bush's poodle, I would never call you anti-British. There are many things here that I like and many I don't like and I'll discuss any of them with you if we're both interested enough to do so (it was English cheese for me this week - a couple of weeks ago it was the guy shot by mistake on the tube).

If someone says something about America or Americans that you disagree with, tell 'em you disagree and tell 'em why. If they come back at you all unreasonable, tell 'em you're not playing any more. But don't fall into the trap of saying to someone that if you're not with us you're against us. Therein lies a very nasty slippery slope that history should have taught us to avoid.

Steve

[Jack]

Christian Socialism........

I would like a government in which church and state are separated. I know the point of your thread is to be positive, dapple, and I do not like to be disagreeable. But it is difficult when someone advocates a form of government in my country which would exclude me. I do feel I am standing up for what I believe in. I'm not going to get into a debate about this, no point in disrupting the thread. Just my opinion.

Christian Socialism wouldn't exclude anybody. Christ doesn't exclude anybody. People often exclude themselves, though.

Church and State have never really been completely separate in the sense that there is absolutely no connection whatsoever and I don't think they're likely to be separate any time soon. It's really a matter of degree (as to how much Church will be involved) and which church(es) it will be.

[dapple]

I am not planning on debating any of these points publically, just sharing a personal perspective.

That's fine, Beth. I'm not asking for debate here. I'm only asking for the complementary perspective to what we usually read here. For and against. Yin and Yang. We seldom hear the other side.

Thanks for your comprehensive post.

I think that if intergalactic aliens were to gain their only impression of the US by reading this board and they were so inclined and had the power to do so, they would destroy the US and, from reading some posts here, I believe that some C&F members would applaud the destruction.

[Jack]

We seldom hear the other side.

I kinda think that we hear "the other side[s]" quite often. There are members of this forum from just about every kind of people (except the sane kind, of course ).

The one issue where I'd like to see more diverse ways of looking at things is race. From what I've seen (with a couple exceptions) C&F's active members are almost entirely caucasian, so when speaking of only getting "one side" of an issue here, that's what first leaps to my mind.

[peeplj]

I love my country, but I would definitely like to see some changes, and since you asked, here they are.

1. I'd like to see a strong and unyielding separation of church and state.

2. I'd like to see the president elected by popular vote.

3. I'd like to see the end of political parties and the spoils system.

4. I'd like to see a minimum standard of living created for all citizens, whether or not they are employed or employable. The ability to obtain food, shelter, and health care should not be linked to whether or not you can convince someone to hire you. It is shameful that in a country with so many resources we still have people dying from the heat in the summer because they can't afford an air conditioner, dying from the cold in the winter because they can't afford heat, and dying from hunger all year round.

5. Money given to aid other countries or international organizations should be withheld indefinitely until number 4, above, is complete. We have no business feeding other nations while our own people starve.

6. I'd like to see big business sharply regulated, and to accomplish this I'd like to see a strong and unyielding wall of separation between commerce and state. It's an international joke (with too much truth) that America has the best government money can buy.

7. I'd like it to be a requirement of all persons seeking to hold public office that they pass a test confiming that they have an I.Q. of 120 or greater.

There ya go, probably worth exactly what you paid to read them.

--James