Care of cotton tenons

Jumbuk · Post by **Jumbuk** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 5:46 pm

My keyless Sweetheart two-piece has a cotton-wrapped tenon. Fits nicely enough. I have been playing for a few months now, and have just recently noticed that condensation builds up and wets the cotton. After about 20 minutes of constant playing, the joint gets so wet that it becomes quite tight. I even noticed one time that moisture was dripping from the bottom of the flute.

My questions:

- Is this normal with cotton-wrapped tenons?
- Why is the joint becoming so tight? Is it because the wood is absorbing moisture and swelling? Is there any danger of splitting?
- Is there anything I should be doing to care for the joint? I swab out the inside of both pieces and leave them out of the case to dry after each session.

Thanks in advance,

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 6:56 pm

Are you using cork grease on the threads before assembling? If not, you should be. It keeps out any moisture and keeps the thread in good shape.

You shouldn't get moisture then, and if you do, you need to re-thread the joints. Ralph can walk you through that if you email him.

Eric

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Sun Aug 28, 2005 7:48 pm

Second cork grease. Probably though it's the wood that
is swelling with moisture. It's possible, though unlikely
with Sweethearts, that this will crack the flute.

One option is to stop and swab the flute occasionallywhile
playing it. There's a device called a 'flute
flag' that enables you to do this almost instantly.

Oiling the flute may also stop the wood from
absorbing moisture.

As Jayhawk says, contacting the maker
is an option--these are swell people.

Finally you might just live with it
and take your chances. A lot of us have played the
hell out of Sweetheart flutes; I've never had
a crack, FWIW.

seisflutes · Post by **seisflutes** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:50 am

It could very well be the cotton thread swelling up with the moisture, more than the wood. If it's only taking 20 minutes for the joint to get tight, I would suspect the thread first. Cotton is a very absorbant fiber(think of towels). Cork grease will probably help with that, or maybe coating the thread with beeswax. I read somewhere that synthetic thread is really better for flute tenons than cotton or other natural plant fibers. And that makes sense to me. I know fiber fairly well, being a handspinner, knitter and sometime weaver.

Cheers!
-Kelly

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:12 am

I would not use cotton threads. Ever.
They swell, they stick and I've had many a flute come to me with stuck (and cracked) joints.

I'd recommend nylon (or kevlar, which I love).
And....
despite the protestations of a few....
I love using teflon tape over the threads. Makes a perfect fit and a nice seal and smooth assembly/disassembly.

my 2-cents

dm

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:15 am

Actually, Ralph uses a synthetic yarn unless someone has replaced what you have...so it's not cotton and won't inherently swell by itself.

Eric

seisflutes · Post by **seisflutes** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:15 pm

Ah, well, that's different then.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:30 pm

{Migoya"]I would not use cotton threads. Ever.
They swell, they stick and I've had many a flute come to me with stuck (and cracked) joints.

I'd recommend nylon (or kevlar, which I love).
And....
despite the protestations of a few....
I love using teflon tape over the threads. Makes a perfect fit and a nice seal and smooth assembly/disassembly.

my 2-cents

dm

Ditto on the Teflon Love. But where tolerances don't allow, Clive Catterall suggests cheap polyester thread for rewrapping tenons; I've had good success with it.

Cork grease or beeswax/almond oil are excellent lubricant/waterproofers as well.

Spit (or more properly, condensation) happens, and in the case of a flute that leaks air it can actually be your friend -- minute cracks or leaky joints swell up and seal. It's just important to protect the sensitive spots, like tenons, from getting soaked through. And of course, don't forget to wipe your tenons down after playing!

jim stone · Post by **jim stone** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:54 pm

Wit happens too, I see. Neat.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:41 pm

I'm with David Migoya on the issue of cotton, although I do remember hearing secondhand that Nina Shorey always recommended using cotton thread for wrapping tenons...if that's true it's quite an endorsement.

My flute has synthetic threads for the main windings. For fine-tuning the fit I use a short length of silk or polyester thread (in a contrasting color from the main windings) that I rub through a piece of beeswax. The beeswax helps the thread stay in place and makes it absorb less moisture. Having the fine-tuning thread a different color than the main windings is important as it allows you to easily spot it and pull it off when the joints start getting too tight.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:31 pm

bradhurley wrote:I'm with David Migoya on the issue of cotton, although I do remember hearing secondhand that Nina Shorey always recommended using cotton thread for wrapping tenons...if that's true it's quite an endorsement.

My flute has synthetic threads for the main windings. For fine-tuning the fit I use a short length of silk or polyester thread (in a contrasting color from the main windings) that I rub through a piece of beeswax. The beeswax helps the thread stay in place and makes it absorb less moisture. Having the fine-tuning thread a different color than the main windings is important as it allows you to easily spot it and pull it off when the joints start getting too tight.

Different colors is a brilliant idea (mine have just "wound up" that way by accident, but you're exactly right)! And thanks for the reminder about the beeswax on the thread, too.

Such a smart man.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:00 pm

if memory serves, I thought Nina used (uses?) a hemp thread.
I do believe there is much less swelling involved.

Remember,too, that threading back way-when made use of the best available at the time. That was probably some form of wool. If so, chances are it had lots of lanolin which waterproofs and lubricates.

A thought.

Cathy Wilde · Post by **Cathy Wilde** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:29 pm

Smart men everywhere!
You guys need jobs?

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:45 pm

Cathy Wilde wrote: Different colors is a brilliant idea (mine have just "wound up" that way by accident, but you're exactly right)! And thanks for the reminder about the beeswax on the thread, too.

Such a smart man.

To give credit where credit is due, everything I learned about thread wrapping came from Bryan Byrne. A truly smart man!

Also I believe Clive Catterall has a lot of good advice on thread wrapping on his website:

http://www.flutes.fsbusiness.co.uk/tenon.html

Jumbuk · Post by **Jumbuk** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:09 pm

Thanks for all that useful advice.

I haven't been greasing the tenon, so that is the obvious thing to do.

One concern I had about greasing the joint - won't that make it pretty loose? I have seen flutes with pretty sloppy joints, and it makes for an uncomfortably precarious hold on the thing.

I oiled the inside of the flute for the first time yesterday. As soon as I can locate some cork grease, I will give that a try.

PS I have a reel of teflon tape sitting around from a plumbing job that might come in handy if the joint gets too loose.

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Care of cotton tenons

Care of cotton tenons

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