Which one should I BUY? Sam Murray v Martin Doyle D flutes!

[Flauta dolce]

I have a fortnight to decide before contacting the above retailers to buy my first keyless D Flute.

I haven't got a clue which one to buy.

The prices are pretty close. I also remember that Martin Doyle doesn't use a tuning slide, claiming his flutes are always in tune. I have tried a Sam Murray flute last week. I promised Martin and Sam that I would need a until 5th September to think about which one I should buy.

[Berti66]

how tough choices you have to make in life eh????
go by what your intuition says .......

berti

[Unseen122]

We can't tell you how to live your life, but if it were me I would go for the Murray.

[Flauta dolce]

Dear Avery

Could you explain why Sam Murray would be a better choice?

Have you had the chance to try out both flutes?

I don't really notice the difference between the flutes one way or another as I have just started playing.


Thanks,

F.D.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

You've tried them both, perhaps you should be the one to say which one YOU like best, eh?

The Doyle flute I have does indeed have a tuning slide, it's blackwood lined and finished beautifully.

(Also, are you paying for the flute, or your parents? Maybe "they" should have a bit of a say in the matter, regardless how "close" the pricing is.)

After a couple or three years of playing whichever flute, and getting proficient on it, if you don't care for it then, it shouldn't be a real problem selling it.

M

[Flauta dolce]

My parents don't come into it at all. I am paying for the flute myself and money doesn't come into it either. I don't know which one is right for me (which why I'm asking you for an opinion).

Martin said to me that he was going to build the flute without a tuning slide (claiming his flutes are always in tune), until I told that I prefer it if he were to build the flute with a slide.

And flutists in Dublin are complaining that he isn't putting slides in the flute.

I find both are tricky to get the embouchure right.

[Wormdiet]

One issue to consider is ergonomics. All other things being equal, go with the more comfortable flute. The Murray that I've spent time with is, compared to my M&E and other flutes, quite slender and comfy. Also - weight and balance are factors. Did you notice a clear difference in these respects?

I dunno about everyone else, but I use a tuning slide all the time. Even if I'm not changing in pitch during a session, somebody else and his brother certainly is. A slide also makes it much easier to practice along with albums - I can even get into Matt Molloy pitch territory with just a tiny bit of wincing. [Not that I even attempt to keep up with his playing! ]

[kenny]

I can't comment on Martin Doyle's flutes because I've never played one. I've had a Sam Murray flute for about 14 years now, and have not had any trouble with it at all. Only last Saturday, at a session in the Mull Of Kintyre music festival, 2 people came up to me enquiring about the flute I was playing, because they liked the sound of it.
I don't think I'd be interested in any flute without a tuning slide. There's never any guarantee that any session you may be in will be exactly in concert pitch.
On the basis of what you've told us here, I'd go with Sam - just my opinion, but that's what you wanted. Good luck with your decision.

[springrobin]

Tuning slide schmooning slide! Absence of a metal slide doesn't mean the pitch can't be adjusted. I move the headjoint out on my unlined Sweetheart if I need to lower the pitch just like I do on my silver flute. A metal slide has a thinner profile and maybe there is less disruption in the air flow when the head and body of the instrument are pulled away from each other than there would be in an instrument that has all wood joining parts but I haven't had a problem with that. I do make sure there is always a good seal between the head and body which is of course an extra maintenance consideration. Folks, correct me if I'm wrong, but clarinets don't have metal slides and they're tunable. Is the physics of the two instruments that different or are folks blaming poor tone quality on lack of a metal slide instead of something basic like- good breath support?

Now if what you are looking for is the sound of a metal-lined head-joint, that's a different matter. All-wood flutes, all-silver flutes and hybrids like wooden flutes with metal tuning slides will sound & perform differently because the materials they are constructed of behave differently. Heck, there've been lots of threads discussing the sound characteristics of one type of wood over another. Personally, I think you should go for whichever you like the sound of 'cause it is a personal choice.

[lixnaw]

One issue to consider is ergonomics. All other things being equal, go with the more comfortable flute.

i second that!
you could also try Crehans in Dublin http://www.crehans.ie/Contact.aspx
try out a few flutes there. they don't advertise any Dave Copley flutes on their website,
but they should have one in the house aswell.

[David Levine]

I have owned both makers’ flutes. You wouldn’t go wrong with either. I have owned Doyle flutes both with and without slides—I much prefer a flute with a slide were I to have just one flute.
Have you played a flute by each maker? If the Doyle feels comfortable in your hands then that should be your choice.
You should definitely get a tuning slide if you were to get a flute made by Martin Doyle. Martin is a lovely, intelligent fellow and a great craftsman. I would also say that dealing with Martin might prove less frustrating than dealing with Sam. Sam is a lovely man also but there is great pressure on him to crank out flutes. Martin is as yet an undiscovered treasure.

[Jayhawk]

David - why the tuning slide on a Doyle? Are they only in tune when warm with the tennon all the way in?

The slideless flutes I've played have all been in tune with the the joint pulled out a few mm allowing tuning sharp enough to handle any sharp boxes or other instruments I've met. Tuning slides are relatively new and seem to make the most sense back when pitch was so regionally variable, and baroque flutist get by fine without them.

How many of us actually ever have to shift their slide more than +/- 2 mm?

Eric

[Cathy Wilde]

David makes a very good point about Martin being an as-yet undiscovered treasure. Now that the whole planet is onto Sam, he's up to his neck, and I imagine none of us really wants him to crank them out like a factory.

Thus, I suspect you'll get the Doyle faster.

Though I've never played one, people whose playing and opinions I respect like Doyles a lot. So I don't think you can go wrong with either flute.

I've done life with a tuning slide and without one, and I personally prefer having the slide. I also like the barrel reinforcement it provides on an oft-stressed piece of wood.

Otherwise, my experience is like Kenny's -- it's always the Murray that people ask me about when I play it.

I've now had the joy of becoming pretty well acquainted with both a keyed and a keyless version, and while they're a bit different from another, they're both great flutes. I don't know what Sam's hit on, but I'm sure grateful for it!

Anyway, good luck. Either one will be a great learning experience for you.

[Cathy Wilde]

(double post deleted)

[David Levine]

Two reasons for a tuning slide. First, tuning. Everybody blows a bit differently. I tend to blow sharp and thus have to pull the slide out a bit more than somebody who blows a bit flat. I agree that you don't have to have the slide because generally you can blow the flute into tune. But every so often I play with a piper who is plays sharp, or with a fiddler who like to play sharp, or a musician (92 year old John Killoury) who can't hear himself well enough to get into tune.
Second, the tone of the flute with a slide seems to me more focused and a tad clearer. The slideless flute has a rich, complex, sonorous sound to it. But the clearer sound of the flute with a slide is easier for me to hear when I'm playing in a session with a couple of fiddles, box, concertina, etc. When you pull the HJ out on a slideless flute there is a gap between the barrel and the HJ that does affect the sound to some extent.

Catherine McEvoy plays a flute with no slide and she plays in tune. But first, she could play a garden hose into tune, and second, she admits that even when the HJ is pulled out just a wee bit she can hear the difference.

I think that Martin's flutes (I haven't mine to hand) has a French slide, a la Hammy and Sam-- where the slide doesn't project far into the head joint. So you have the best of both flutes. BTW, Martin's slides are thinner than any I've seen on any flute, Olwell and Grinter included.

By the way, by the way, KathyKathy, I heard you the first time, I heard you the first time.