Dinosaurs on Noah's Ark

[rodfish]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Do you believe that having faith is a "work?"

No. Actually, I think that faith itself, is a gift. (Eph. 2:8-9)

Rod

[Lorenzo]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

...the NT certainly indicates quite clearly that the gift of eternal life comes through faith in Christ, not works.

• James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
  
  2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
  
  2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
  
  2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
  
  2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James agrees more with his brother's teachings, but Christianity today agrees more with Paul. As I read the NT account, I see that the message subsided though the initiatives of Paul. That's why I refer to todays version as Paulianity. Original Christianity was slightly different. Paul Hellenized it. He also intellectualized it and made it appeal more to the mind than the heart.

The kind of faith Jesus advocated was blind faith ("not seen" Jn. 20:29 KJV)

• Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So, to conclude the matter, works is the more important process in being saved, because it makes faith become valuable.

[Lorenzo]

"Goodness" actually doesn't have anything to do with our final destiny; according to the Bible anyway. Where we spend eternity is based only on our relationship with God through Christ. Not "good deeds."

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Do you believe that having faith is a "work?"

We're told that faith is a gift, but it takes a lot of work to give it the right value. You can isolate many parts of the bible and find anything you may wish, but the collective view is the best. It's a puzzle and the bigger picture involves more than isolated pieces, or groups of pieces. Some haven't finished putting it all together and that's partly why there's so many different views.

[rodfish]

• Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

...the NT certainly indicates quite clearly that the gift of eternal life comes through faith in Christ, not works.

• James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
  
  2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
  
  2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
  
  2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
  
  2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James agrees more with his brother's teachings, but Christianity today agrees more with Paul. As I read the NT account, I see that the message subsided though the initiatives of Paul. That's why I refer to todays version as Paulianity. Original Christianity was slightly different. Paul Hellenized it. He also intellectualized it and made it appeal more to the mind than the heart.

The kind of faith Jesus advocated was blind faith ("not seen" Jn. 20:29 KJV)

• Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

So, to conclude the matter, works is the more important process in being saved, because it makes faith become valuable.

I would humbly disagree with you that works is the most important process in being saved. Quite the contrary, works are a "result" of being saved and not a contributing factor.
Titus 3:3-8 "At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." NIV (See also Ephesians 2:8-10)

As far as James' rich discourse on faith and works, it would appear to me that he is countering the (still today) common practice many Christians have of claiming to have faith in Christ with no evidence of that faith in their lives. He rightly proclaims that true saving faith will manifest itself in works. Therefore if a believer has no desire to live a holy life; or "do good works" then he/she best start examining their faith. True faith, "generates" good works. Not the other way around.

As far as Paul's writings go, I see no disagreement with them and the rest of the NT teachings, including Christ's. Peter the apostle declared that they were "Scripture."
2 Peter 3:14-16 "So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. NIV

Be well,

Rod

[Lorenzo]

The only reason I mentioned that works is more important is because the bible mentions that a person can have faith without works, and that kind of faith is worthless. The KJV uses "works" and "deeds" interchangeably.

Like faith, a mustard seed is also "dead" until it does something like grows. You can carry one around in your pocket forever, and be all smiles, and talk about how great it is to have it, but like faith, it's not useful until works makes it so. Works is greater because it perfects or completes faith. Faith is essential so that good works can be accomplished.

Which is more important...the hammer or the nail? The hammer, because you can have billions of nails just lying around, but one hammer will make them all useful. So, works gives faith value. I can imagine a scenario like that too, in the early days, where lots of newly converted Christians were extremely happy, but just lying around. James comes along and advises differently. Do something. "if you love me, keep my commandments." The parable of the talents applies here too.

You and I will never settle the question here. Even in the last 2K years, the experts haven't reach a concensus. But we can agree that the bible seems to say two different things about it. I think there's a reason for that.

[rodfish]

The only reason I mentioned that works is more important is because the bible mentions that a person can have faith without works, and that kind of faith is worthless. The KJV uses "works" and "deeds" interchangeably.

Like faith, a mustard seed is also "dead" until it does something like grows. You can carry one around in your pocket forever, and be all smiles, and talk about how great it is to have it, but like faith, it's not useful until works makes it so. Works is greater because it perfects or completes faith. Faith is essential so that good works can be accomplished.

Which is more important...the hammer or the nail? The hammer, because you can have billions of nails just lying around, but one hammer will make them all useful. So, works gives faith value. I can imagine a scenario like that too, in the early days, where lots of newly converted Christians were extremely happy, but just lying around. James comes along and advises differently. Do something. "if you love me, keep my commandments." The parable of the talents applies here too.

You and I will never settle the question here. Even in the last 2K years, the experts haven't reach a concensus. But we can agree that the bible seems to say two different things about it. I think there's a reason for that.

I certainly agree that you and I won't be able to settle the question here, (except perhaps in our own minds ) but I do agree with you that James makes it quite clear that Faith without works is a dead thing.

My main concern is that some people might get the impression from your point of view that it is "good works" that set them right with God. That it is through good works that they can "earn" their way into heaven. That it is through their good works that they are saved. And the Bible certainly teaches otherwise. "It is not of works, lest any man should boast." And "without faith, it is impossible to please God."

Anyway, enough said on this subject. I have to go to work.

Be well,
Rod

[anniemcu]

And of course Christians will tell you that the atheist/agnostic whose been a good person all his life will be tortured to Hell in eternity anyway.

I think that would have been better if you'd said some Christians.

Another odd thought just popped into my head. Why does God want to be worshipped anyway? I'm not being frivolous, honest. I can see why an intelligent deity would want everyone to get on in peace and not to gum the whole of creation. But why want the worship?

A question I have asked since the age of 12... that's a while now... with no answers that seem acceptable to me.

[Denny]

God needs groupies?

[Walden]

I don't claim to know all the answers regarding the workings of the Divine mind, but, yeah, He does seem to like being worshipped.

[fancypiper]

Several of the big 10 or the "thou shalt nots" (4 IIRC) concern Him and worshiping Him.

[Doug_Tipple]

The idea of a God that is anything like a super human being is a fallacy, in my opinion. This is a huge Universe. There is no doubt that such an immense universe doesn't arise out of nothing. The fact is that we humans can't conceive of the conplexity of what is actually going on. I don't pretend to know. I do know that our simplistic ideas that are set forth in the major religions of the world don't come close to expressiing the beauty of it all.

[fancypiper]

Scientific theory: At first there was nothing, then it exploded. (the big bang theory)

Creation theory: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

My God given human intelligence tends to accept creation over the big bang theory.

There is a lot of "hoop jumping" you have to do to support the rest of the physical universe (there is that sore spot of the conservation of matter/energy plus lots of others).

And, don't forget the old archeoligist's saying, "absence of proof isn't proof of absence".

[Flyingcursor]

Blackwood,

You have a firm grasp of what you're talking about. Far more then I gave credit for. Clearly you've studied. I'm inclined to think at one time you spent some time in a church that ultimately gave you the willies.

But unfortunately the dogma seems to say that you cannot be a good person unless you are a Christian and that arrogance bothers me greatly.

It bothers me greatly too. If a person states their eternal salvation came through the belief in the sacrifice of Christ, i.e "grace alone", then how can they believe they are any better morally than anyone else. Don't they read any of Paul's letters?

rodfish,

Many excellent remarks from you as well.

[Blackwood]

Rodfish. No deep anger here just amazement at what people are willing to believe without any rational structure to support it.

Thanks for the reply, some good points, let me highlight and comment on some of them:

Why did God create man? First of all, for His own glory. Since we're commanded to glorify Him in Scripture, it follows that that is one of the reasons for which we were created

I get that answer a lot and to me it is totally incomprehensible. Beings wishing to be glorified tend to be egotistical, self-indulgent maniac despots. Why would a God create a species to be glorified? What kind of being would create a lesser species to have it marvel at oneself? Not very impressive behavior or motivation in my book. Does that really not bother you or makes you at least wonder why?

It's also probable that He created us for fellowship

Are you implying God has a need? He is lonely? I think that’s a contradiction in terms?

2. Why did God create man with a lack of wisdom? Possibly because it's one of the gifts God likes to give individually. (not as a "blanket" blessing upon all of mankind.) James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." NIV

Sorry but “possibly” is a bit shy of certitude. I think the honest answer is we don’t know. But I think it is one of the central questions to all religious belief. Why would a God create inferior beings with limited knowledge incapable of seeing “the light” so to speak clearly as evidenced by the myriad of religions and interpretations? It just doesn’t make any sense, and certainly not to us which emphasizes the validity of the original question.

Worship, is the admission of the worshipper that God is the creator and owner of everything, and places us at His feet where we belong

You seem very certain about that. Why can you be certain? If you are certain why is your belief correct whereas the belief of Buddhists for example is incorrect?

4. Why does he set rules bearing horrific punishment when he knows man is "sinful" and is bound to break them?
Any parent can give you a good answer to this one. We set rules to protect our children and hopefully to help them grow into responsible adults.

Correct, but we don’t kill or torture our children. And as parents we also know that continued interaction, communication and reinforcement of the message is critical to parental success. That’s how our species works. Appearing and speaking to a few select representatives and then disappearing for 2,000 years is not an effective way of communicating as evidenced by the utter confusion of religious interpretation in the world today.

There is no real idea of how God wants us to live.

Another example of why God is not a very communicator

I would argue that God did Not create man to be sinful. He created man with the freedom to be sinful, and there is a difference. Man had the free will to choose and he chose to sin, knowing the punishment that was to come.

Not sure this is logically correct. Man was created the way he was. God either did or did not know that man would sin. Again if he knew he would why get angry? If he didn’t know he isn’t God.

Adam and Eve supposedly had a choice, I didn’t. I would venture to guess that if a booming voice out of the heavens or a voice out of a burning bush were to talk to me I may most probably listen very carefully and obey since I don’t want to be tortured in hell (free will eh?) or alternatively I may check myself into the next psychiatric clinic for observation (fun pun intended).

6. What does heaven really look like? What do you do there? Stare at God lovingly all day long?
I sense a bit of good natured sarcasm in this question

Yes indeed

Yes, I believe those in heaven will spend some of their time gazing at Christ and God in loving awe and wonder, but I think there will be more. I mean after all, He created the wonders of this earth and the majesty of the universe. The world itself holds incredible wonders for our enjoyment, can you imagine what God has planned for the joy of His family for eternity? No, of course you can't. Actually, the Bible says you can't: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"- NIV 1 Cor 2:9

So we don’t know but we hope for the best, since we believe he is good. Sorry but that’s just really thin. I suppose I can’t take my flutes with me, so Irish Trad is out, bummer (more sarcasm I know).

To crystallize the message:

We don’t know why he created us to be inferior
We don’t know why he has a need.
We don’t know how he wants us to live (your quote)
We don’t know why he is not very good in communicating his message
And we don’t know what he actually offers besides glorifying him.

I submit to you that believing in a deity without the ability to clearly articulate answers to these questions (and there are others of course) is (to me) a blind faith based on wishful thinking, in other words believing without a critical assessment of the facts.

And if God wants to be worshipped by people who just want to glorify him for glorifying's sake while choosing to stay ignorant about his motivation then at least he is consistent as he created us ignorant and wished us to stay ignorant. Again why?

Best..

[Blackwood]

flying cursor:

Blackwood,

You have a firm grasp of what you're talking about

I don't know that i have a firm grasp, but i certainly try to give it a shot. Thanks for the sentiment though.

Don't they read any of Paul's letters?

You know Paul is an interesting character. He was supposedly single handedly responsible for the spread of the early Christian church. Since the Church didn’t really catch on in the Jewish lands (hmmm?) he was clearly very successful spreading the word in the Greek/Latin worlds. Impressive considering the logistical challenges. However, he never met Jesus which I find interesting since I have to wonder where he got his certitude from.

I always wonder why he gets so much credibility especially considering his approach to women. He stated very clearly for all to read in the Bible that women are not allowed to speak in church.

The rational explanation I suspect would be to say that Paul was a product of his culture at his time and he reflected that culture. However speaking critically I could argue that given our value system today he was clearly wrong and inappropriate. And since he was wrong and inappropriate on this issue what else was he wrong on?

Or maybe he was right and God does indeed want women to be second class citizens…

What is it?

Here's one quote: 'A women should learn in quietness and in full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing - if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.' (1 Timothy 2:11-15)