The transition from whistle to flute. How long should it be?

[Flauta dolce]

I would like to change over to the Irish D Wooden Flute.

I am learning the whistle for six months and play it quite well. I never intended sticking with only the whistle. I have a lot of pieces learnt off and the ornamentation is going well. My present teacher says he cannot believe how much I've come on in terms of my progress in the whistle.

What I'd like to know is whether there is a particular time that is required to be learning the whistle.

I'm merely curious to know as my various teachers have told me different things. Some say I'm ready, others say I should wait unti I'm really good at the fingering and have all the rolls and casadhs learnt off to a tee.

I personally think I would be learning the whistle for a life time as I am aware of how difficult it is to be really, really good.

I would prefer to move onto the Irish wooden flute however for many reasons, for example. I really don't like the shrill notes in the tin-whistle (in high g, a, b etc.). I prefer the more the more base earthy notes from the flute.

Someone told me he knew someone who got tinnitus from playing the whistle excessively. I believe him
Is this true in your experience...?

[tin tin]

No reason to wait to learn flute, as I see it. Have at it!

[johnkerr]

Irish flute and tin whistle are two totally different instruments that happen to share a common fingering system. Although many flute players also play whistle, and some whistle players also play flute, there is no requirement that a flute player must start off playing the whistle. Many flute players (myself included) didn't start on the whistle. If you don't like the whistle, don't play it. If you want to play flute, then get started learning the flute. It's going to take you just as long to master the embouchure, breath control and other issues unique to the flute whether you put time in on the whistle beforehand or not. While you're mastering these aspects of flute playing, you can simultaneously be learning all the tunes and fingerings you would have learned playing the whistle.

If you have a teacher who insists that you learn the whistle before you can start on the flute, find a new teacher. Shouldn't be all that hard if you're in Dublin...

[JeffS]

It sounds like you have good reasons for wanting to learn the flute. I think if you want to start on the flute, START ON THE FLUTE. I'm sure others will chime in here, but I say putting an artificial time limit before switching over is antithetical to the whole spirit of the music. I played the whistle for a few WEEKS and then realized I preferred the warmer sound of the wood flute. You can practice your rolls, triplets on the flute as well as the whistle.

Good luck.

[Wormdiet]

What everyone else said.

I find that sometimes switching off to whistle actual inhibits my fluting - I seem to lose embouchure focus if I've been whistling for a few tunes and switch back.

[ChrisA]

IMO, it's never too soon to start playing the flute if that's what you want to play. The basic fingering transfers from the whistle, but so much else doesn't.

You can certainly get tinnitus from the whistle. The flute is an octave lower, so -less-
dangerous, but if you play for decades, you are likely to get tinnitus from it as well.

I keep meaning to find some good musicans earplugs, ones that filter out the sound evenly
across the pitch range without distorting the sound. We all really should wear them when
practicing.

--Chris

[Cynth]

My answer is not very worthwhile because I don't play the flute. But I agree with you that it would take a lifetime to be really, really good whistle player just as it would to be a really, really good flute player. So if you prefer the flute, I would think you should just start getting lessons on the flute and spend your lifetime on that. You can learn the things the flute has in common with the whistle on the flute just as well, I would think.

I have never heard that one should play the whistle before learning to play the flute. Many people do, possibly because whistles can be bought quite cheaply and it is a way of starting out without a big investment just to see if one likes playing an instrument, likes the music, and can keep practicing. I think often children start out on the whistle just because it is relatively easy to get some sort of sound out of it and they are inexpensive to purchase. So again no huge investment has been made if it turns out the child is not interested in playing an instrument.

I think you have to really love the instrument you are trying to learn to play. It is hard enough to stick with it during the hard times let alone stick with something that your heart is not really in.

[Cathy Wilde]

I think there's no shortage of examples of people who do both very well, but my teacher and I were both griping not long ago about how whistle is more difficult than flute as far as technique goes. He's a great flute player, I'm an okay one .... but we both think we're lousy whistle players. After all, it's a whole different style.

And then, of course, there's piping .... no wonder so many pipers make such great whistlers and flute players!

(But flute players making the transition to piping? .... Eh, not so much.)

ANYWAY, this is all a long way of saying I can see the logic in what your teacher's saying -- by staying the course you'll get that lovely style and technical ability down now; then, when you switch to the flute, you can simplify your style a bit no problem.

Also, you don't have to be combining thoughts about rolls and casadhs, etc. with thoughts about embouchure and its constant adjustment (i.e., at least you'd get the ornamentation 2nd-nature -- because for a new learner the flute embouchure can feel like anything but!).

All that said, you're naturally going to spend more time on the thing you like the most. So if you're convinced you need a dance with a flute, you may as well go find out.

But until you find one to borrow or save the funds for a purchase or whatever, don't quit the whistle! Stuff some cotton in your ears and keep playing .... I'm inclined to think it'll make your flute playing all the better in the long run.

I sure wish I was a better whistle player!

[Wormdiet]

If yer teacher keeps playing whistle with his nose. . . of course he'll be a better fluter.

[Cathy Wilde]

OK, that's brilliant.

And true; at least he has an excuse!
He was doing that at our local a few weeks ago -- guess he thinks he needs whistril (whistle+nostril) practice?

(What a goofball. He's gonna be out of control when he's Kevin Henry's age.)

[ninjaaron]

As a note. I just started the flute from the whistle, so it's a pretty fresh experience for me.

Someone earlier in the thread said that playin' the whistle didn't help with the breath requirements. I don't think tha was true in my case. I found breath control to be very easy on the flute. perhaps this is because I spent most of my time playing on a low whistle. who knows?

I think I actually like whistles better than the flute anyway. More definition, and a more pure sound. I like that. Flutes are too chiffy!

But I like to flute too... for some reason... more direct control and versitility I guess. I really just need to get an open hole boehm. Pure, defined tone and loads of versitility. Open holes for all my bending desires.

Or maybe I need a cylindarial trad flute made of silver. Maybe that copper tubing I have in the basment... hmmm...

*Gone to work bench (seriously).*

[Flauta dolce]

Can someone explain what embouchure and its constant adjustment mean in relation to the Irish wooden flute?

It doesn't mean anything to me as I have never learnt the flute.

FD

[ninjaaron]

Or maybe I need a cylindarial trad flute made of silver. Maybe that copper tubing I have in the basment... hmmm...

*Gone to work bench (seriously).*

Well, that was pointless. It sounds nearly identical to my PVC flutes. Slightly "harder", but not any more pure (and it took twice as long). Maybe I should just practice more.

Anyway, embouchure is the way you have your lips when you play the flute it just has to do with the size and shape of the hole you create, to control air volume and speed. These things will effect your tuning, volume, tone, etc... and it has to get tighter the higher notes your playing.

It's really too tough to do, but it takes a lifetime to perfect. It's one of those things that just keeps getting better as time goes on. Of course, it also causes your lips to get tired as a beginner. Just take a break when they get tired. Practicing with tired lips learns you poor technique.

I really am just spewing second hand information. I've been playing the flute for about two or three weeks. If anyone else tells you differently than me, just believe them.

[bradhurley]

Can someone explain what embouchure and its constant adjustment mean in relation to the Irish wooden flute?

It doesn't mean anything to me as I have never learnt the flute.

FD

It's a little confusing because the term "embouchure" has two meanings in the flute world: the hole on the flute that you blow into, as well as the shape that your lips take when you blow.

The "constant adjustment" you refer to is in the latter (the shape of your mouth and the blowing angle), but I wouldn't say the adjustment is "constant." It's more that you have to adjust your embouchure between the first and second octave, and you also have to adjust your blowing angle slightly to get certain notes to play in tune.

Unlike the whistle, you don't get the second octave on the flute by blowing harder. There are several ways to get it, which involve focusing the airstream and/or changing the blowing angle...if you do a search on this forum you'll find quite a few discussions with good advice about how to get the second octave on the flute.

The small adjustments that you do to get certain notes into tune, like A (which is usually sharp), C# (which is usually flat), and the low D and E on a Rudall-style flute (which are typically flat) might seem intimidating at first but after awhile they become second nature. On some modern flutes by Irish makers like Hammy Hamilton and Eamonn Cotter, you don't actually have to do much if any adjusting to get those notes in tune, as those flutes are designed to play in tune in the first two octaves. (The reason they're out of tune on other flutes is that those flutes were originally designed to play in three octaves, so the makers had to "fudge" some of the notes a little in order to make it possible to play the whole range in tune.)

[Flauta dolce]

I'm still interested in starting the flute.

However, a friend told me that it took him two weeks to get a note sounded from the flute.

As I'm a bit frail : it could take me longer.

But in the long term, I'm looking for a good sound from the flute. I'm thinking that it will take me a life-time even.

I've heard some people playing in a session and they don't have a decent sound coming out the wooden flute and their phrasing is lousy. That worries me.

[I'm also worried about tendinitus...is it all in my head?]

Flauta Dolce.