Bush: Intelligent Design Should Be Taught

IRTradRU? · Post by **IRTradRU?** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:50 am

Yep, the diamond among the bits of glass.

But Affirmative Action has gone way beyond equal access in education.

missy · Post by **missy** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:59 am

Tyler wrote:
"My wife is a special-ed teacher, so we have a particularly special place in hell reserved for NCLB."

Understood! As the parent of a gifted/ADD child, in a state that doesn't have any regulations requiring any type of gifted education be offered (you only have to "identify" them

) I've had it with federal mandates, too........

IRTradRU? · Post by **IRTradRU?** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:00 am

Bloomfield wrote:I am talking about education.

U.S. Troops escort African American students from Central High School, Little Rock, Arkansas, 1957.

By the way, the Affirmative Action legislation didn't come into being until 1964.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:01 am

Walden wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:I am convinced, a mistake, at odds with our culture, and quite unnecessary at best.
Our culture? At odds with modern Yank culture, perhaps.

In all honesty, I was trolling with that one. But I do believe that the "culture", if you will, of separation of church and state --which is what I was really referring to-- is part and vital parcel of this nation, and not just a concept of convenience. Is it a good thing to pay only lip service to that while we let science education become a vehicle for theological speculation? And which religious direction will the State give its nod to at the expense of the rest? Have our communities of faith become so emasculated that religious thought has little hope of continuance within their various purviews any more? If so, religious faith in general would seem to have become a thing of shrillness and desperation.

Sorry, that's just how it looks to me. I say let religion take care of its own. Christianity --for example-- has gotten through tougher times than this and without any bureaucratic help.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:25 am

TomB wrote:Speaking of freedom of/from religion, check this out.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050802/ap_ ... ible_study

Tom

Scary. The course, I mean.

Imagine the protests if I tried to teach an equivalent course, but about Wicca. You'd see conservatives everywhere talking about "Separation of Church and State" as if they actually embraced the concept.

missy · Post by **missy** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:41 am

from the article:

"The National Council on Bible Curriculum Web site says its elective course .............................. No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them,"

Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

I took an "eastern Religion" elective course in high school (and this was an all girl, Catholic high school). I don't think it caused anyone to convert - although I later found out that one of my classmates tried to catch the Hale-Bop comet.

I also took a "Bible as a Historic Document" elective course in college - it traced the history of the region and how some of the writings followed, and some didn't. The professor told us specifically that he would NOT reveal his religious beliefs to us - and he didn't, and taught the course that way.

Post by **Nanohedron** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:50 am

missy wrote:from the article:

"The National Council on Bible Curriculum Web site says its elective course .............................. No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them,"

Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

I took an "eastern Religion" elective course in high school (and this was an all girl, Catholic high school). I don't think it caused anyone to convert - although I later found out that one of my classmates tried to catch the Hale-Bop comet.

I also took a "Bible as a Historic Document" elective course in college - it traced the history of the region and how some of the writings followed, and some didn't. The professor told us specifically that he would NOT reveal his religious beliefs to us - and he didn't, and taught the course that way.

I think this is a good thing. And even if such elective courses are unavailable at a given school, one can --and ought to, I think-- always educate oneself. Education does not lead perforce to conversion. I've got a rendering of the Qur'an in my bookshelf. Last I checked, I'm not a Muslim.

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:04 pm

IRTradRU? wrote:Yep, the diamond among the bits of glass.

But Affirmative Action has gone way beyond equal access in education.

OK, but you were the one that said "back to the topic- education." So, here, it seems that Bloomie is correct, at least as far as this topic and Affirmative Action is concerened.

All the Best, Tom

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:05 pm

IRTradRU? wrote:
Bloomfield wrote:I am talking about education.

U.S. Troops escort African American students from Central High School, Little Rock, Arkansas, 1957.
By the way, the Affirmative Action legislation didn't come into being until 1964.

So what? Where did anyone say that it didn't and what does that have to do with the topic itself?

Tyler · Post by **Tyler** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:06 pm

This is kinda OT, but if the Stem Cell research bill passes, we could start calling it Intelligent Re-design!

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:07 pm

Nanohedron wrote:[ I've got a rendering of the Qur'an in my bookshelf. Last I checked, I'm not a Muslim.

Thankfully for you the Patirot Act has been scaled back, also.

Tom

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:09 pm

missy wrote:Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

No, but it's paid for by taxpayer dollars, right? Not sure how I feel about that aspect.

All the Best, Tom

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:09 pm

Nanohedron wrote:
missy wrote:from the article:

"The National Council on Bible Curriculum Web site says its elective course .............................. No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them,"

Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

I took an "eastern Religion" elective course in high school (and this was an all girl, Catholic high school). I don't think it caused anyone to convert - although I later found out that one of my classmates tried to catch the Hale-Bop comet.

I also took a "Bible as a Historic Document" elective course in college - it traced the history of the region and how some of the writings followed, and some didn't. The professor told us specifically that he would NOT reveal his religious beliefs to us - and he didn't, and taught the course that way.
I think this is a good thing. And even if such elective courses are unavailable at a given school, one can --and ought to, I think-- always educate oneself. Education does not lead perforce to conversion. I've got a rendering of the Qur'an in my bookshelf. Last I checked, I'm not a Muslim.

I agree that it's important to teach this stuff. Kids should understand where they come from and why things are what they are (as far as that can be understood). I think we should teach our kids the history of ideas, which includes the history of science (Why were people content with vague notions of the world and the body for so long, and then suddenly in the Enlightenment started measuring and dissecting everything?). It also includes religion and philosophy, both of which were indistinguishable from religion at some point in the past. I think everyone should at least once in their youth have actually read Genesis and Exodus, the story of the birth of Christ, his Passion, and esp. the sermon on the mount. That is not only the foundation of Christianity it is also the cultural bedrock of our society (for better or worse), and kids should be taught about it. The same applies to Homer, Greek myth, the Apology of Socrates, and Cicero's political writings. It certainly can't hurt to make kids read the Vishuddi Magga, a bit the Koran, Hindu creation stories, Nordic myths and Viking romances; but the judeo-Christian stuff is central in enabling our offspring to understand the world around them.

TomB · Post by **TomB** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:11 pm

Bloomfield wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
missy wrote:from the article:

"The National Council on Bible Curriculum Web site says its elective course .............................. No public school student should have to have a particular religious belief forced upon them,"

Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

I took an "eastern Religion" elective course in high school (and this was an all girl, Catholic high school). I don't think it caused anyone to convert - although I later found out that one of my classmates tried to catch the Hale-Bop comet.

I also took a "Bible as a Historic Document" elective course in college - it traced the history of the region and how some of the writings followed, and some didn't. The professor told us specifically that he would NOT reveal his religious beliefs to us - and he didn't, and taught the course that way.
I think this is a good thing. And even if such elective courses are unavailable at a given school, one can --and ought to, I think-- always educate oneself. Education does not lead perforce to conversion. I've got a rendering of the Qur'an in my bookshelf. Last I checked, I'm not a Muslim.
I agree that it's important to teach this stuff. Kids should understand where they come from and why things are what they are (as far as that can be understood). I think we should teach our kids the history of ideas, which includes the history of science (Why were people content with vague notions of the world and the body for so long, and then suddenly in the Enlightenment started measuring and dissecting everything?). It also includes religion and philosophy, both of which were indistinguishable from religion at some point in the past. I think everyone should at least once in their youth have actually read Genesis and Exodus, the story of the birth of Christ, his Passion, and esp. the sermon on the mount. That is not only the foundation of Christianity it is also the cultural bedrock of our society (for better or worse), and kids should be taught about it. The same applies to Homer, Greek myth, the Apology of Socrates, and Cicero's political writings. It certainly can't hurt to make kids read the Vishuddi Magga, a bit the Koran, Hindu creation stories, Nordic myths and Viking romances; but the judeo-Christian stuff is central in enabling our offspring to understand the world around them.

Yes, great point. If all of that were offered in these classes, it would be fabulous.

Tom

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:22 pm

missy wrote: Ok - I have no idea of what or how this course is taught - but I admit I don't understand how, if it's an elective course, it's being forced on anyone.

The presence of a course (With prosyletizing impact) in a public school indicates that there is official sponsorship and promotion of the religion.

Moreover, my tax dollars support that course, which, even if it is elective, is still wrong.

I took an "eastern Religion" elective course in high school (and this was an all girl, Catholic high school). I don't think it caused anyone to convert - although I later found out that one of my classmates tried to catch the Hale-Bop comet.

The issue has nothing to do with Catholic schools because they aren't a branch of the state. Unless you want to talk school vouchers.