The Future of Celtic Whistles

[Shaun-Patrick Young]

Thanks Paul.

And Thank you Tom Cat. It's good to be "home" home. The last trip out to Kuwait wasn't exactly a joy ride. Been a lot places, but that place is definitely not a tourist attraction in my book.

Guess folk are curious about the "K" in Celtic. A few years back (well, O.K., ... more than a few years) a group of us misfit Texans were trying set some stages up for a North Texas "Irish" Festival in Dallas, Texas. Back in those days it was ALL done with volunteers. American visitors kept using the "S" for celtic, so we sort of made a deal that we'd use the "K."

Why? You ask?

Well. Because it's pronounced with a "K." It's NOT the same as the Boston "S"eltics. We got a LOT of that in those days. Most of that crew has departed for other parts, and some have simply departed, but at least we tried.

As Paul mentioned, I really DO love the sound of the ... six-hole ... style whistle, and I'm somewhat obsessed in trying to make one that has that certain mystery quality in the sound. That's why I made the "simple" crosswind. Glenn Schulz (God bless 'em) and Paul with his moral support really helped me improve my design for a straight barrel type, and when I finally got a lathe, I'm really happy in how my 4Winds Copper Whistle turned out.

So. That's why I asked the question to start this message trail going, and I really appreciate this message board from Dale (and crew) in helping all of us ... "misfits" ... keep the six-hole "whistle/flute" and music that is in the traditions of the Keltic Dead alive.

It really makes me happy that there is still so much interest (and a LOT of strong emotion) about the Keltoi tribes, and glad to know the six-hole whistle will be around for a few more generations to come. Check out my quote in the Keltic Dead Links on my website. I agree with some of the comments that being "Celt" is part of what's inside of us, and I believe that the six-hole whistle is a key that unlocks that part of us in being what we are, ... no matter in what country we live, or what our appearance may be.

Best regards,

The Keltic Dead ... with a "K" because why? .... That's the way it SOUNDS. =^)

[mukade]

My granny used to cringe every time she heard the 'C' or 'K' word.
She would say "It's tough enough being Irish without being celtic as well."

About the Bodhran, didn't Sean O'Riada create it from the tambourine in the 1950s?

Mukade

[perrins57]

About the Bodhran, didn't Sean O'Riada create it from the tambourine in the 1950s?

Mukade

No, I think you'll find it was a biscuit tin lid

[GaryKelly]

The Keltic Dead ... with a "K" because why? .... That's the way it SOUNDS. =^)

Aha. Phonetic spelling eh? I'd advise against applying the same philosophy to tunes such as "King of the Clans" and "The Mighty Clansmen". You never know what might happen.

[fearfaoin]

American visitors kept using the "S" for celtic, so we sort of made a deal that we'd use the "K."

Ah, combatting American ignorance. I can relate. I cringe when someone coments on the
"Seltic" knotwork decal I have on the window of my car... Ugh.

[Whitmores75087]

You'll find old photos from the turn of the century showing u-pipes, fiddles, whistles, etc but not bodhrans. I get a kick out of traditionalists who reject bass fiddle or djembe players but allow bodhrans and low whistles.

[tin tin]

If the term Celtic is used to describe the Irish, Scots, Bretons, etc., shouldn't we be calling the English Anglo-Saxons or Normans, the French Franks, Normans, Celts, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, or Gallo-Romans, the Germans Lombards, Saxons, Allemanni, Angles, Saxons, Burgundii, Visigoth etc, etc... In other words, we don't use ancient tribal names for people from most countries, so why use it for Ireland, Scotland, etc.?

I understand the desire to lump cultures with similar music under one name, but it seems odd that we use an ancient tribe, found all over Europe, whose music undoubtedly sounded nothing like the traditional Irish or Scottish music we know, for that term.

[Jim McGuire]

The Boys of the Lough ran into this early. What type of music does a group play that has players from different locales: Ireland, Shetland, etc? People lumped it all together in their mind and told them they were playing Celtic music. They kept on asking everyone 'what do you mean by that?'.

Ethnic music seems to have a consistent appeal and calling it Celtic is one way to acknowledge the different players and groups trying to make it happen. 'Celtic' helps to expand the pie and the appeal to more than one specific group.

[Les Cruttenden]

what an interesting theme.....spent some years studying the roots and origins of the Celts...as a personal hobby.. the influence is everywhere...and much of it was undoubtadly spread to various lands...IN MoRE RECENT TIMES...by Irish folk , many of whom travelled to escape the famine and unjust landlords...none of this can be denied....no I'm not Irish, just a lover of Irish history.....and NO supporter of terrorist activity....I much subscribe to the view though ofTony McGinley...'Celtic is a feeling'....if youve got it then you know it ...A really gooooooood read is 'Pocket History of Irish Traditional; Music byGearoid O hAllmhurain....he mentions many of the influences upon Irish music...seems to me it's all gone into the melting pot and come out pretty wonderful...I just love it...no matter what folk may label it as...Les.

[perrins57]

I much subscribe to the view though ofTony McGinley...'Celtic is a feeling'....

I thought that was Coke-a-cola?

[Random notes]

Philologically speaking, keltoi is a Greek word indicating "foreigner" or "outsider" similar to the latin root for barbarian. The latin word for the people under discussion here is gaul which is closer to what they called themselves. Therefore, the modern form, gael, is the more correct name for the people who brought a distinct culture from somewhere in (what is now) eastern Europe westward through central and western Europe and up through the isles of Britain and Ireland. The one similarity it has with the word 'celt' is the likelihood of mispronunciation - 'gael' is pronounced more like 'gal' than 'gale'.

(One of the most fun things about this forum is that I finally get to use some of the useless bits of info cluttering up the convolutions of my brain. Man, I gotta get a life.)

Roger

[fearfaoin]

Philologically speaking, keltoi is a Greek word indicating "foreigner" or "outsider" similar to the latin root for barbarian. The latin word for the people under discussion here is gaul which is closer to what they called themselves.

This prompted me to look up Caesar's <a href="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... 3D1">[i]De Bello Gallico ("Gallic War")[/i]</a>... Here's what Julius said:

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another,
those who in their own language are called Celts, in our [language] Gauls, the third.

I wonder what "their own language" that would have been. We're talking mainland Europe
here, so probably not any kind of Proto-Gaelic. Which part of Gaul did these "Celts"
occupy? But, you're right the word "Celt" was not first used to describe any Irishman.
Funny how that has now been attached (at least in America) exclusively to Ireland.

[Random notes]

his prompted me to look up Caesar's De Bello Gallico ("Gallic War")... Here's what Julius said:

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another,
those who in their own language are called Celts, in our [language] Gauls, the third.

I don't know why Julie would say that "Celt" is in "our language"

In The Isles, historian Norman Davies writes:

It is perhaps worth noting that for the purists the 'Celtic' label is unacceptable. The modern name for the Celts derives from the classical Greek word keltoi, which had the meaning of 'strangers' but which was only used by the Greek writers for peoples living in central parts of the Continental interior during the first milennium BC. In its origins, therefore, it did not refer to peoples living further to the north and west, especially in the Isles; and it was not used to describe the Celtic linguistic group as a whole until the era of modern scholarship.
... The Romans, in contrast to the Greeks, used the term 'Galli'. In retrospect, modern scholars might have been better advised to adopt 'Gallic' rather than 'Celtic' for the overall label. It is closer to what many of the Celts call themselves, namely 'Gaels'. But by the time the issue arose, 'Gallic' had already been reserved for reference to ancient Gaul, and by extension, to modern France. So 'Celtic' stuck. Only the most pedantic or hostile commentators continue to make an issue of it. (italics mine)

With that said, I decline to be hostile or pedantic (at least for the moment) so I will make no further issue of it.

Roger

[Tony McGinley]

The Bodhrán - Ahhhh yes - - now there is a great deal of speculation about this drum.
Seán Ó Riada certainly made it popular and sparked the refinement of the drum.
However, in the South West of Ireland, West Cork and Kerry,
where Seán Ó Riada lived and where I live,
there is a tradition of "straw Boys" or mummers using a drum
which was actually a primitive sifting tray of skin over a wooden frame.
"A harvesting tool made of animal skin pulled over a wooden frame--
called a "dalloch" by the Scots and a "dallan" by the Irish--
was employed as a sifter for winnowing edible grains from chaff."

For me, it doesn't matter where the drum came from -
BUT that it sounds right in the music.
That, IMHO, it cetainly does when appropriately used and well played.

It is the music that matters and even before the music
it is the "feeling" that matters.
If a whistle or a stringed instrument or a drum can evoke the feeling,
then they can become Celtic or Irish instruments.
The Greek Bazouki has been recently adopted into the family
as a child of Irish music.

The music evolves and so does the use of instruments.
Where evolution is much slower is in race memory and
in the wiring of the brain.
The Celtic brain IMHO seems to have a slightly different wiring configuration or programming,
especially when it comes to how people communicate,
in the sometimes caustic sense of humour,
in story telling, poetry and of course in music.

It is this "perception" and/or communication style which,
IMHO tends to define the Celt.

Whatever it is that defines Celtic culture and its music,
one thing is for sure - -
That it has had a really vast influence on the world,
given that Ireland, Scotland, and other Celtic regions
have such tiny populations, and have been largely
isolated regions up till quite recently.

The literature, culture and music is in mega demand world-wide.
Why is this? Could it be that "feeling" (not Coke) is perceived by others too?

[fearfaoin]

All Gaul is divided into three parts, one of which the Belgae inhabit, the Aquitani another,
those who in their own language are called Celts, in our [language] Gauls, the third.

I don't know why Julie would say that "Celt" is in "our language"

He didn't. You misread. "Celt" is in their own language and "Gaul" is in ours (Latin).
(It's confusing, because the word order is close to the original Latin.)
I'm glad you didn't argue, I cited the Caesar to back you up.

I was not arguing, but picking your brain: My question was, what language
would the Celts be using to call themselves "Celts"? Occitan?
And, speculatively, would they have just borrowed the term from the Greeks
before Caesar?