when you have to play three D notes what do you do

[Bloomfield]

It is probably more appropriate (and practical) not to cran that bottom D on the flute or the whistle but play a triplet eg BD (3DED or BD (3FED

I like this way too. I picked up the sound from the L.E. McCullough tutor, and it's
grown on me. I don't know the particular tune 'flagstone of memories', but I used
d + ded triplet in parts of cup of tea and bucks of oranmore.

Step by step, it'd be

B ( xoo ooo ) ( 1/8th note )
D ( xxx xxx ) ( 1/8th note )
cut ( xox xxx )
D ( xxx xxx ) ( Triplet-speed - 1/3rd of a quarter note)
E ( xxx xxo ) ( Triplet-speed )
D ( xxx xxx ) ( Triplet-speed )

The triplest are not played even at 1/3 of a quarter note (as they are in classical music), but the first two notes are rushed, if you will: sixteenth+sixteenth+eighth. Best to listen to a good traditional player do it (and I would not recommend L.E. McCullough).

You can, of course, put a note-triplet into most positions where you might use a
long roll, if you'd like. I use an A 3(AGA) in some places, but they do have a tendency
to turn into rolls at a certain speed.

double or triple tonguing would work too, and you could certainly double-cut, or
cran.

I am not so sure about double or triple tonguing here (triple tonguing perhaps if it's the high d, B d 3(.d.d.d ..., but I don't recall hearing that done).

To my mind it has a lot to do with the placement of the figure in the phrase, and I might do something different at the end of the phrase (like BDED), that I would at the beginning.

[michael_coleman]

cran

[The Weekenders]

I do the thing of creating a roll on D by playing all fingers down, then cut, then cut with a L1 vent, so you get the upper and lower. I could swear I read either on Steve's site or Larsen that it was either Willie or Miko who did that. It seemed like it would be impossible to do when i was just learning, but its no big deal.

I am still experimenting with which fingers to do it with because there is a certain feel within your fingers that translates to rhythmic crispness. Most recently, I tried cutting with R1 then tap with both L1 and L2 . . .. Least workable was the Larsen recommended cut of the finger just above (R2). I am thinking long-term, of what will work in any situation. Once I settle it, I practice it in. I am still at that stage.

I am just not that fond of second octave D crans but I love the low D.

Another interesting issue is whether to replace the vent finger right after. You can leave it open but then the issue is: what fingering comes next, depending on the tune.

And, I have a feeling that this might not work with every whistle you own.

[lemccullough]

Hi, Berti, this is L.E. McCullough offering some thoughts re: ornamenting your BDDD figure for "Flagstone of Memories" -- a great tune:

1) Be courageous -- learn to play the best you can. Don't be afraid to master what seems like a slightly more complicated way. Don't let anyone infect you with their fear, mediocrity or lack of curiosity. It's your music, make it sound the way you hear it and want it to sound. If it's in your mind, you can get it in your fingers. Once you learn the correct way to do the ornament so it fits the tune, it's always easier than futzing with a clumsy work-around that's never quite right.

2) Make the ornament fit the melody and the rhythmic duration. Don't worry about micro-measuring each note; the entire ornament happens in a second or less. Just make sure the ornament fits the 3 eighth-note D-D-D time frame in the proper beat of the melody, and the internal rhythm of the notes will sort themselves out.

3) These days, I'm playing the figure you mention like this:

xoo ooo
xxx xxx
xxx xxo
xxo xxo
xxx xxo
xxx oxo
xxx xxo
xxx xxx

Try it, and if it feels right for you, use it. An ornament like this, I spend several hours over several days just playing it until it becomes automatic and you can use it in a live tune without thinking about each part of the ornament. It just comes out of you and into the tune, and it's music.

I assume this figure you're referring to is B descending to the bottom D, which appears in the 2nd, 3rd and 6th measures of the first part of the tune. You could also do a similar ornament on the BDDD passage that starts measure 7 but goes up a third to the 2nd octave D. When I play this D with the top hole open, my fingering is:

xoo ooo
oxx xxx
oxx xxo
oxo xxo
oxx xxo
oxx oxo
oxx xxo
oxx xxx

You have to play this ornament quickly to keep the airflow even and the sound from breaking up (because of the open top hole). Or you could play it the same fingering as the bottom D, depending on your whistle and how cleanly you want to hear the ornament. The top hole closed has more -- and here we'll use an objective scientific term -- "fuzz".

Good luck, and keep me posted. Write if you have questions. Hope to play this tune with you some day!

Vaarwel,

L.E. McCullough

[FJohnSharp]

(This is not a reply to L.E.'s post (because I haven 't read it yet except to know that it exists) so if it contradicts then I apologize)

I was taught that crans are not always appropriate, that I really shouldn't just drop in a cran whenever it seems like one might fit. I mean, my teacher wouldn't slap my hand with a Feadog or anything, but he'd stop and he'd say, "I probably wouldn't have put a cran in there but if you like it then go ahead,' which I interpret to mean, 'do that around real whistle players and see where it gets you."

[Tyghress]

What? No one going to mention the possibility of tonguing three D's?

[Lambchop]

What? No one going to mention the possibility of tonguing three D's?

That's what I do . . . .

Edited to say: Make that did . . . .

3) These days, I'm playing the figure you mention like this:

xoo ooo
xxx xxx
xxx xxo
xxo xxo
xxx xxo
xxx oxo
xxx xxo
xxx xxx

[Dave Parkhurst]

Being a piper, I usually do what amounts to g/d/e grace notes on a GHB chanter. First lift the left index finger and replace it quickly, then the right index finger, and then the left ring finger. It's embarrassing but I'm not sure what that's called in Irish music, cranning possibly?
Dave

[lemccullough]

I was taught that crans are not always appropriate, that I really shouldn't just drop in a cran whenever it seems like one might fit. I mean, my teacher wouldn't slap my hand with a Feadog or anything, but he'd stop and he'd say, "I probably wouldn't have put a cran in there but if you like it then go ahead,' which I interpret to mean, 'do that around real whistle players and see where it gets you."

Hi, FJ.

I would respectfully encourage your teacher to acquire a philosophy toward embellishment that is less dogmatic and more adventurous. . . less self-restricting and more open to allowing his students to create the music they hear and feel without trepidation or arbitrary technical limits. If you need to use a cran, use it. Triplet works there? Use it. If it's in your toolbox of acquired ornaments, whip it out and throw it down. When you play music, saying YES is a heckuva lot more fun than saying NO.

The cran is no Big Mystery. It's simply what a fluter, whistler, piper does to approximate a long or short roll on the D. That's its function, to ornament the same rhythmic space as a roll. I learned to use it because I heard great Irish musicians using it and I wanted to play up to their level. . . the same way when I study a spoken language I make sure to learn all the verb tenses and all the suffixes and other elements of grammar. Just because someday I might need them to converse with speakers of that language and would want to be considered fluent.

Unlike your teacher, I've never heard of any official or unofficial standard governing cran usage by tinwhistle players. Then again, I don't know if I'm a real whistle player, but I drop crans whenever they fit and like where it's gotten me.

Best,

L.E. McCullough

p.s.: I've always loved your postscript. . . it's so true and, in fact, raises my spirits whenever I read it.

[bradhurley]

This passage in The Flagstone of Memories would be a short roll on the whistle if it were on any note but D...emmline's verbal description of it is spot-on. Sure the cran would work here, but listening to Vincent Broderick playing it himself (on his Turoe Stone cassette) it sounds like he's playing it close to the way Peter Laban described above with the D-E-D triplet, though in some places it sounds like he's just playing it BDD, holding on to the last D a bit longer. It's hard to tell for sure because the fiddle is mixed higher than the flute, and the fiddler's doing triplets or there. It's written out as BDDD in the Turoe Stone book, but those transcriptions don't always jibe with the way Vincent plays them on the recordings.

On the triplet, if you find that going from D to E and back to D is difficult, you can always finger it this way:

xxx xxx
xxx xox
xxx xxx

or even this way:

xxx xxx
xxx oxx
xxx xxx

My middle finger and index fingers are stronger than my ring finger, so I find this gives a more reliable triplet, and there's a little more contrast in it.

[Cayden]

I've never heard of any official or unofficial standard governing cran usage by tinwhistle players. Then again, I don't know if I'm a real whistle player, but I drop crans whenever they fit and like where it's gotten me.

.

Cranning low D and E on the whistle poorly compares to cranning the same notes on the pipes. On the whistle crans on these notes lack strength and conviction. Ofcourse you can crann them if you want to but personally i find the effect lacking while the more common (among older players and playing styles anyway) approaches to the notes have more strength, in other words supply in a better way the effect the ornamention is trying to supply.

Brid Donohue's playing O Farrell's welcome to Limerick and the Hurler's March on her new CD is a good example of this. She treats both tunes, notorious piping tunes she learned off her grand-uncle Willie Clancy, as whistle tunes, deliberately not using the cranns. The tunes sound better for it. A touch of class and taste in my opinion.

[Jon-M]

Given your opinion, Peter, I'm curious to know what you make of Clancy's use of the cran in Banish Misfortune? I realize that in print this question has a challenging tone, but, in all honesty, it is not meant to. I'd just like to know how you put this together.
Also, do you feel more postively about a cran on the high D?

[FJohnSharp]

I was taught that crans are not always appropriate, that I really shouldn't just drop in a cran whenever it seems like one might fit. I mean, my teacher wouldn't slap my hand with a Feadog or anything, but he'd stop and he'd say, "I probably wouldn't have put a cran in there but if you like it then go ahead,' which I interpret to mean, 'do that around real whistle players and see where it gets you."

Hi, FJ.

I would respectfully encourage your teacher to acquire a philosophy toward embellishment that is less dogmatic and more adventurous. . . less self-restricting and more open to allowing his students to create the music they hear and feel without trepidation or arbitrary technical limits. If you need to use a cran, use it. Triplet works there? Use it. If it's in your toolbox of acquired ornaments, whip it out and throw it down. When you play music, saying YES is a heckuva lot more fun than saying NO.

The cran is no Big Mystery. It's simply what a fluter, whistler, piper does to approximate a long or short roll on the D. That's its function, to ornament the same rhythmic space as a roll. I learned to use it because I heard great Irish musicians using it and I wanted to play up to their level. . . the same way when I study a spoken language I make sure to learn all the verb tenses and all the suffixes and other elements of grammar. Just because someday I might need them to converse with speakers of that language and would want to be considered fluent.

Unlike your teacher, I've never heard of any official or unofficial standard governing cran usage by tinwhistle players. Then again, I don't know if I'm a real whistle player, but I drop crans whenever they fit and like where it's gotten me.

Best,

L.E. McCullough

p.s.: I've always loved your postscript. . . it's so true and, in fact, raises my spirits whenever I read it.

It's possible that I may have been guilty of embellishing his attitude for dramatic effect, but he has said that there are good places to cran and less good ones. I think what he really means is more like what Peter said.

[Cayden]

Given your opinion, Peter, I'm curious to know what you make of Clancy's use of the cran in Banish Misfortune? I realize that in print this question has a challenging tone, but, in all honesty, it is not meant to. I'd just like to know how you put this together.
Also, do you feel more postively about a cran on the high D?

I knew that one would come up immediately: As I said, you can cran whatever you want. It is a force of habit with pipers and i will readily admit to cranning there in the past. I have gone off it though, or try to :roll: . I feel playing simply DED there in Banish misfortune has more clarity and strength.
Cranning high d is not something I'd do unless taking the mickey. They are stylistic choices, everybody has to make them for themselves. Just be sure you make them for the right reasons.

[Bloomfield]

... They are stylistic choices, everybody has to make them for themselves. Just be sure you make them for the right reasons.

... like fame, glory, and buxom groupies.