Wanted - C-flute (preferably alive)

flow · Post by **flow** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:52 am

Hello Folks,

A piper and some fiddle friends of mine are starting a C-session, so I now desire and require a C-flute. I'll consider most any offer, but please note that I play left-handed. Thanks in advance, and we'll C ye's later!

PS, particularly noissome 'C' puns are vigorously encouraged.

wolvy · Post by **wolvy** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:47 pm

Do you guys plan to sing C-shantys in this session?

I, too, have looked into this. Casey Burns makes a nice, playable C flute for not too much money and the wait time isn't too bad.

toddyboy50 · Post by **toddyboy50** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 3:32 pm

How difficult is it to play in c up to speed using keys on a D flute? (low c, f)

Tod

chas · Post by **chas** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:18 pm

toddyboy50 wrote:How difficult is it to play in c up to speed using keys on a D flute? (low c, f)

Tod

It's not difficult to play in C on a keyless D flute. The first tune Chris Norman gave me was an A minor tune; The Fnat on anything but the smallest-holed flute is easy to half-hole. The big problem with playing in C is that many of the tunes go below the bell note of a D flute.

toddyboy50 · Post by **toddyboy50** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:23 pm

Chas, I was thinking how easy, compared to using a c flute, if you have a d flute that is keyed with LOW C, F, and high C? I know all the notes are there, but why do people get a seperate c flute if D flute with keys works well?

Tod

Denny · Post by **Denny** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:43 pm

toddyboy50 wrote:Chas, I was thinking how easy, compared to using a c flute, if you have a d flute that is keyed with LOW C, F, and high C? I know all the notes are there, but why do people get a seperate c flute if D flute with keys works well?

Tod

Short answer: it moves the break...

Longer: the tonic and the bell note are the same... This makes all of the fingerings the same as playing the tune on a D flute in the key of D
(yes, I know that I just glossed over a ton of stuff)
Long answer: ask Tal.

Denny

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:16 am

toddyboy50 wrote:Chas, I was thinking how easy, compared to using a c flute, if you have a d flute that is keyed with LOW C, F, and high C? I know all the notes are there, but why do people get a seperate c flute if D flute with keys works well?

Good point. It's too bad it's not really practical to make a flute like the Silkstone d+ whistle -- with a seventh hole for the low-C. There are loads of tunes that use just that one extra note.

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:25 am

toddyboy50 wrote:How difficult is it to play in c up to speed using keys on a D flute? (low c, f)

Tod

If you're playing in a C session, people will be playing tunes you know, but transposed down a step. That means you would have to re-learn the fingering for every tune if you wanted to play them on an 8-key flute in D. And some of those fingerings will feel quite awkward.

Irish musicians are inherently lazy. It's a lot easier for us to keep the fingerings we know and use a flute in a different key.

That said, I once sat in a session with Kevin Crawford and John Rynne when John had just gotten a new Bb flute made by Geoff Wooff. At that time, Kevin didn't have his Bb flute yet, but he did have an Eb (the very same flute that can be heard on the Gort session tape that's being discussed in another thread here). John played a bunch of tunes on his Bb and Kevin transposed on the fly using his Eb, and he did it flawlessly. Very impressive, although that kind of transposition is easier than trying to play in C on a D flute, because you don't need to use the keys except on a few tunes.

Seanie · Post by **Seanie** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:36 am

Hello

I didn't know that Geoff Wooff made flutes. Did it sound nice?

Many thanks

John Moran

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:42 am

Seanie wrote: I didn't know that Geoff Wooff made flutes. Did it sound nice?

I don't think he has made many of them, but I've seen two. John Rynne's was quite nice indeed. I also saw a much older Wooff flute recently, in D, which sounded great once we'd cleaned the cobwebs and dead spiders out of it

Before we discovered the gunk in the bore, I tried playing it and concluded, "ah yes, here's another pipemaker who makes flute on the side, whose flutes sound as if they were made on the side." But after cleaning the bore, it turned out to be a remarkably good flute, with a strong tone and good intonation.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:56 am

bradhurley wrote:That said, I once sat in a session with Kevin Crawford and John Rynne when John had just gotten a new Bb flute made by Geoff Wooff. At that time, Kevin didn't have his Bb flute yet, but he did have an Eb (the very same flute that can be heard on the Gort session tape that's being discussed in another thread here). John played a bunch of tunes on his Bb and Kevin transposed on the fly using his Eb, and he did it flawlessly. Very impressive, although that kind of transposition is easier than trying to play in C on a D flute, because you don't need to use the keys except on a few tunes.

Great story!

I've actually thought about that type of transposition a lot, because I'm getting an A-flute. Going from D to A (or Eb to Bb, in this case) is *relatively* straightforward. It's a fun exercise to transpose tunes up or down a 4th. The sticky wicket is the C natural.

If the D flute plays in, say, A mixolydian, the A flute plays with the same fingerings as a D tune. If the D flute plays in D, the A flute plays with the same fingerings as a G tune.

Both of these transitions use muscle memory that's already ingrained for most players. I'd think playing C tunes on a chromatic D flute would be a nightmare in comparison.

Speaking of Kevin Crawford, I just got his "In Good Company" album and it's fantastic.

Jack Bradshaw · Post by **Jack Bradshaw** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:59 am

Been playing any number of C tunes (not sessions) on the D flute. Just transpose 'em up by eye and play "sharp"....absolutely trivial.....now if I could just figure out how to lip 'em back down......(or play with the typical violinist)....hmmmm

bradhurley · Post by **bradhurley** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:18 am

Jack Bradshaw wrote:Been playing any number of C tunes (not sessions) on the D flute. Just transpose 'em up by eye and play "sharp"....absolutely trivial.....now if I could just figure out how to lip 'em back down......(or play with the typical violinist)....hmmmm

That's not really what we're talking about, though.

In a C session, people aren't playing tunes that are normally played in C. They're playing D tunes in C, G tunes in F, and so on.

The same principle applies when you take the tunes you know on a D whistle and play them on a C whistle using the same fingering: everything that was in D is now in C, and everything that was in G is now in F. But you didn't have to transpose or change your fingering in any way, you just switched from a D to a C whistle.

C sessions are usually started by a piper or flute player who has a C instrument...the fiddlers typically tune their strings down (although I've seen a few fiddlers who don't retune but transpose, which is harder). As I mentioned above, it would be possible to play all these tunes on an 8-key D flute, but it's a lot of work because you have to change your fingering and some of those fingerings are awkward. Ornamentation could be tricky too. So it's just easier (but, um, more expensive!) to get a C flute and use the same fingering if you're planning to play frequently in C sessions.

Besides, the sound of a C flute is just wonderful...it's got the power of a D with that haunting quality of a Bb, the best of both worlds, I think.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:51 am

bradhurley wrote:It would be possible to play all these tunes on an 8-key D flute, but it's a lot of work because you have to change your fingering and some of those fingerings are awkward. Ornamentation could be tricky too.

About ten years ago at Willie Week there was a German woman, I've forgotten her name, playing D flute with us in a C session. Her local session was dominated by pipers with C sets and so she had learned to play anything a tone down, no bother, and it sounded exceedingly good.

johnkerr · Post by **johnkerr** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:53 am

bradhurley wrote:Besides, the sound of a C flute is just wonderful...it's got the power of a D with that haunting quality of a Bb, the best of both worlds, I think.

I agree, Brad. Just got a keyless C flute from Patrick Olwell myself, for just those two reasons. It's been haunting from the get-go, and I'm working my way into the power. Patrick has tweaked his embouchure hole design ever so slightly from what he was doing when he made my D headjoint 13 years ago, and it's taking some getting used to as I go back and forth between the two. But I know the power is there, 'cause I heard it when Patrick and my session friends Rob Greenway, Josh Dukes and Brendan Bell (who all have Olwells with the newer embouchure hole design) played my new flute. It's always nice to have new challenges to keep your playing fresh!