Scams in the name of good flutes

[RudallRose]

Sadly there are many many scams to part people of their money in thename of flutes.

They continue unabated, so the best we can hope for is good sense and training.

I'm amid the eBay sale of a Grinter 8-key flute I have. I've even had to put up an identifier on the photo to ensure pirates don't swipe a copy of the photo and attempt to pawn it off as their own for a resale.
Sick.

I encourage anyone selling flutes to lable the photos with some identifier that will thwart these sleazy efforts.

The eBay flute for sale has garnered offers of off-eBay sales offers. By that, I mean someone is contacting the underbidders saying they are the owner of the flute and would be willing to sell it (or that their top price wasn't met) for a set price. Send the money and they'll get the flute.
Disgusting.

Recently I listed the Grinter on usedflutes.com and I 've been pelted with dozens of inquiries from seemingly legitimate buyers.....all in broken english......asking for a final price and a .....ta-da!.....a photo.
I'm sure they're trying to peddle it as their own on the side.
To boot, they all seem to use the same form letter to make the inquiry, basically fill in the blanks. Some minor variations, but all the same basic mumbo-jumbo.

Too, this board has seen reference to a Kirst flute recently for sale. That "owner" then contacted me saying the flute is fine, they are in Greece (not the U.S. as their ad implies) and money order the dough and they'll send the flute. If it doesn't arrive, not to worry.....it's insured, so I can get my money back that way.
Yeah, right.
By the way.....the flute was listed for $1,000.....and Kirst flutes can go for as much as 10 times that amount.

So, folks be careful.
The scammers are spending lots and lots of time figuring out how to make off with our money.
They don't want the flutes; they want the cash!

Remember the adage: if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Another adage from my world of investigative reporting (funny, but true): If your mother says she loves you, check it out.

dm

[David Levine]

I got this today:

Hello, I contact you because the winner from my auction wasn't able to complete the transaction .I am talking about the *** Grinter Wood Flute Rudall Rose Model 8key + Item number: 7324934403 *** The price that i ask for the item is US $2,500.00.If you accept this offer and if you are ready to buy the item please email me back soon .I must let you know that we will close this transaction only trough eBay and inside of it . IF YOU ARE INTERESTED PLEASE E-MAIL ME AT: melinda_323@yahoo.com Thank you

... along with four others equally criminal

[Denny]

Possible! Though "Melinda" doesn't sound very New Yorkish...
...course, David could be stealing some of the text from emails that he has received.

You might ask her if she has a bridge she is thinking of unloading.

Denny

[Tom O'Farrell]

The web has become filthy with crooks, virus's, lichen, and god knows what. David is simply reminding us just how bad it is, and it's getting worse. I'm still getting these form letters for a boat I sold three years ago.

Today I got one of these e-mails supposedly from e-bay telling me someone else has accessed my e-bay account from a different computer and asking me to confirm my info, including of course my bank info. I presume it is a scam, but well done.

[Denny]

Today I got one of these e-mails supposedly from e-bay telling me someone else has accessed my e-bay account from a different computer and asking me to confirm my info, including of course my bank info. I presume it is a scam, but well done.

Yep, common scam.

Sorry to have been caught teasing Migoya in his public service announcement thread...

Denny

[RudallRose]

Levine

fair enough....
keep your ears and radar up!

[RudallRose]

xOx

[Denny]

David & David,

Given the amount of eBay fraud:

If we could put together a list of red flags for new buyers...
Maybe a sticky, announcement, whatever.

first time seller with good pictures
first time seller with good description
money order

Somebody will need to elaborate, I tend to be terse!
Denny

[Terry McGee]

David & David,

Given the amount of eBay fraud:

If we could put together a list of red flags for new buyers...
Maybe a sticky, announcement, whatever.

I've been wondering about a similar thing, Denny, ever since I foolishly transgressed every rule but fortunately still ended up with a flute only because the guy turned out to be honest!

I guess phase one is to see if we could come up with a succinct set of warning signs. If we can, we could ask the forum owner to make it a sticky or whatever. Perhaps some of the current stickies or announcements have served their immediate purpose and could make way for what appears to be a major issue of our time.

Perhaps subsequent contributors could copy the list below and refine it?

Proposed Sticky/Announcement:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: "Warning - Internet Flute Scams!"
--------------------------------------------------------------

The Internet is a good source of interesting flutes, but it is clear that a range of scams have evolved involving offers of flutes that are not owned by the seller. These scams appear to fall into these categories:

- a spurious vendor recycles images and descriptions of flutes that have previously been sold or auctioned on the Internet. These may be offered on Ebay or through other sales systems
- bidders who missed out on a purchase are contacted by a spurious third party claiming the sale did not go through and that they are now being offered the item
- (any other themes?)

These warning signs should be taken seriously:

- the seller has no prior history or feedback
- a first time seller has surprisingly good pictures (possibly lifted from a power seller)
- a first time seller has a very good description (ditto)
- the starting price seems unusually attractive
- an attractive Buy-it-now price is offered
- the seller is in an unusual and remote location
- the seller seeks to introduce a three way deal - you wire the money to my mother in Bratislavia and I'll send you the flute
- the seller attempts to steer the purchaser towards a financial settlement outside the selling system's control - e.g. money order, Western Union, cash, etc
- the seller offers inducements to use unsafe payment systems - I'll cover the postage, 20% off, etc.
- in proposing Western Union, the seller requests the transfer ID number (which enables them to avoid having the nominal personal ID, and enables them to pick up the money from completely different locations)
- you are contacted directly by someone purporting to be the seller, or by someone claiming to have a similar item at a better price
- (any other warning signs?)

Simple precautions:
- contact the seller and ask a simple question, such as what are the lengths of the various sections, can you send me an image of the cap, does the tuning slide operate freely, etc.
- never agree to payment systems outside the control of the business operating the auction
- follow the 'Safe Buying Practices' advice of the selling system concerned.
- (any other precautions?)

What to do if you suspect a fraud:
- gather whatever evidence you can from the suspected perpetrator
- contact the sales system's abuse centre
- (any other actions?)

What do people think?

Terry

[dwinterfield]

I think Terry's post covers most of the appropriate warnings. Were I to sell a flute on e-bay, I'd copy the warning in it's entirety in my listing.

David & David,

Given the amount of eBay fraud:

If we could put together a list of red flags for new buyers...
Maybe a sticky, announcement, whatever.

I've been wondering about a similar thing, Denny, ever since I foolishly transgressed every rule but fortunately still ended up with a flute only because the guy turned out to be honest!

I guess phase one is to see if we could come up with a succinct set of warning signs. If we can, we could ask the forum owner to make it a sticky or whatever. Perhaps some of the current stickies or announcements have served their immediate purpose and could make way for what appears to be a major issue of our time.

Perhaps subsequent contributors could copy the list below and refine it?

Proposed Sticky/Announcement:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: "Warning - Internet Flute Scams!"
--------------------------------------------------------------

The Internet is a good source of interesting flutes, but it is clear that a range of scams have evolved involving offers of flutes that are not owned by the seller. These scams appear to fall into these categories:

- a spurious vendor recycles images and descriptions of flutes that have previously been sold or auctioned on the Internet. These may be offered on Ebay or through other sales systems
- bidders who missed out on a purchase are contacted by a spurious third party claiming the sale did not go through and that they are now being offered the item
- (any other themes?)

These warning signs should be taken seriously:

- the seller has no prior history or feedback
- a first time seller has surprisingly good pictures (possibly lifted from a power seller)
- a first time seller has a very good description (ditto)
- the starting price seems unusually attractive
- an attractive Buy-it-now price is offered
- the seller is in an unusual and remote location
- the seller seeks to introduce a three way deal - you wire the money to my mother in Bratislavia and I'll send you the flute
- the seller attempts to steer the purchaser towards a financial settlement outside the selling system's control - e.g. money order, Western Union, cash, etc
- the seller offers inducements to use unsafe payment systems - I'll cover the postage, 20% off, etc.
- in proposing Western Union, the seller requests the transfer ID number (which enables them to avoid having the nominal personal ID, and enables them to pick up the money from completely different locations)
- you are contacted directly by someone purporting to be the seller, or by someone claiming to have a similar item at a better price
- (any other warning signs?)

Simple precautions:
- contact the seller and ask a simple question, such as what are the lengths of the various sections, can you send me an image of the cap, does the tuning slide operate freely, etc.
- never agree to payment systems outside the control of the business operating the auction
- follow the 'Safe Buying Practices' advice of the selling system concerned.
- (any other precautions?)

What to do if you suspect a fraud:
- gather whatever evidence you can from the suspected perpetrator
- contact the sales system's abuse centre
- (any other actions?)

What do people think?

Terry

[Denny]

Terry,

That covers the most blatant ones, doesn't even have the flute, and the "Simple precautions:" starts to touch on misrepresentation.

...and not overly verbose,
Denny

[Doug_Tipple]

I can certainly understand that when large sums of money are involved in any internet transaction, you need to be especially careful. It makes sense to take every precaution to prevent faud, as described above.

However, for the smaller international transactions that I have been doing as a seller, I have found that it is convenient to accept international money orders drawn on a US bank and MoneyGrams in addition to Paypal, which is my preference. In my two most recent transactions to customers in Italy, the buyers, both professional musicians, preferred to send payment by a Traveller's Express MoneyGram, which I picked up at Walmart. I am not sure why they chose this method of payment over paypal. For a seller, I think that it is much easier because you have an opportunity to receive the money before you send the product.

As a seller, another risk that you assume is the matter of postal insurance. In the USA, to send an insured international parcel, the parcel must be sent by air parcel post, which is a high rate even before the insurance fee. On my one attempt to file a claim for a lost package to an island in the Indian Ocean, the post office's forms were so frustrating and time consuming, that I finally gave up in despair. I was supposed to take my flute to a local music store so that they could attest to its true value (as if they would know the value of a flute that I made). Then I was supposed to prove that the customer didn't actually receive the package. Since that experience with the post office, I started to self-insure my international shipments. I charge an insurance fee, and I personally assume the risk of theft or damage. Not having to use the post office's insurance allows me to ship flute parcels at an airmail letter rate, which is much lower than the air parcel post.

As a buyer of an item listed on the internet, I would try to follow Terry's list closely.