Have/Have-Nots Gap Widening - What does it mean?

[susnfx]

I'm concerned about two articles I read today. One on CNN.com says there are now 7.4 million millionaires in the U.S. (and rising):
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/25/pf/reco ... tm?cnn=yes

...while poverty is on the rise in Utah (as elsewhere, I would imagine):
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_2756252

For those philosophers, economists, deep thinkers out there, what does this mean in the long run? What happens if this continues (as it surely will) 10, 20, 50 years down the road?

Susan

[The Weekenders]

Without a middle class, we, or any other country cannot have a semblance of democratic government. It's frightening. I wish I could believe that either of the two dominant parties in the US sincerely wanted to preserve it, but instead, it's just seen as a cash cow to be milked.

[susnfx]

Crime will increase, of course, as more people become desperate and angrier. Thought about robbing a bank myself a time or two...and although I accept responsibility for the position I'm in, I also believe there's some luck-of-the-draw involved in who gets it all and who doesn't - and that seems so unfair to me (I know, I know, "whoever said life was fair?").

Susan

[The Weekenders]

I think its interesting that the second article never mentioned the effect of illegal immigrants on wages (which is to lower them overall). I assume its happening in Utah as it is here.

The Dems think that raising the min wage is the answer but it doesn't address the "independent contractors" which is the loophole that has led to strawberry laborers becoming independent serfs, for example. I quoted an book of several essays by Eric Slosser (Fast Food nation author) a while back on old pre-Pub forum about it. Between illegal day laborer and the independent contractor workaround, the entire job hierarchy is subverted from the bottom up.

And of course, the current admin isn't addressing the influx either. The one sop Bush threw the other day was a bit of money for the hospitals who have to treat em. And I think he announced a few hundred more border guards while marginalizing the Minutemen.

[missy]

there's so much that goes into making a person "live" at "poverty" level -

Education - did they finish high school? If not, why not.
29 years ago ( ACK! ) when I graduated high school, you could get decent jobs with just that diploma. There was trades to get into, factory work (many times that was plum pickins!), etc.
Now - you can't even get into union trades without having at least a technical college degree (and you don't get into the union without some type of nepotism for the most part).
Factory jobs? Nah - they've all gone to China or someplace.

So - if you don't have at LEAST a high school diploma, there's little to no hope of ever getting a job with a decent salary. The "kid who can't do college" is sunk.

Or what about rural areas where kids grew up and took over the "family" farm? Now the family farm is a corporate farm - or it's got 100 housing units sitting on it.

Does the family have kids? Were the kids born to young parents? Is there a father even involved in the family?

Giving everyone health care, or such, is band-aid fixes at best. There's an entire segment of society that "made" it in my generation that can't in today's graduating class. There's another group that is going on second or even third generation that has lived at poverty level and knows nothing else. A decent education that equips someone to make a decent living MUST become a priority. The factory, union, or farm jobs are few and far between.

Missy

[djm]

The more common something is, the more it becomes devalued. As missy noted, a highschool diploma used to mean something. Where I work, you need a BA just to push the mail-cart around the office. And why not? BAs are a dime a dozen. At most, a BA is considered as a sign that you have the ability to learn something.

Its hard to imagine that being a millionaire may someday become devalued, but where one million used to be considered having it made for life, its now at least ten million if you never want to have to work again.

How long can this go on? Until there is no possible way to sustain it, and not before. If I had millions, or the real opportunity to make them, I would not hestitate to hold on to them, and probably, neither would most of us. So we will keep on as we are until we just can't keep the current socio-economic model in place. And when it does change, it will not be for the better for any of us.

djm

[susnfx]

How long can this go on? Until there is no possible way to sustain it, and not before. ...So we will keep on as we are until we just can't keep the current socio-economic model in place. And when it does change, it will not be for the better for any of us.

Okay, this was basically my question - what happens when it can no longer go on?

Susan

[RonKiley]

Another statistic I saw, don't ask me where, says that 50% of the CEOs in the country do not have a degree. When I was working the common phrase was, If I need a PHD I'll hire one.

Ron

[Tyler]

How long can this go on? Until there is no possible way to sustain it, and not before. ...So we will keep on as we are until we just can't keep the current socio-economic model in place. And when it does change, it will not be for the better for any of us.

Okay, this was basically my question - what happens when it can no longer go on?

Susan

I'd read this same article in the Trib also...
I agree that this situation cannot continue, and it will fail, I believe, within my lifetime.
What can be done?
All I know is that I get the bujeezus taxed out of me for making under $25,000 annually (I pay near %15), but my father, who is a self made man (for the sake of decency I refuse to disclose his earnings), pays near %4.
Perhaps if there were a tax system that did not favour the wealthy, and we could all agree to use the money to better healthcare and public education, that would be at least a start.

I feel I have to diverge from my brother-up-north djm's opinion about education, though. No doubt that more HS diplomas devalue said document, but also, at least in the US where we have torrid education systems, the extremely low quality of education and educators has dealt a severe blow to the worth of a diploma. the results of this are felt all the way through the spectrum of education, even to the collegiate level.
Our society has dumbed down our education system to meet the neccesity of youth who are ever less disciplined and ever more distracted.
Have you ever viewed a textbook from today compared with a text of just 25 years ago? The difference is staggering! There are literally "clips," "bits," and "commercials" within the text (that I personally find severely distracting at best.) Youths have been flashed commercials and fast paced action their whole lives, and need it in school to hold their attention. Even my business law textbooks are that way.
Anywhoo...sorry to diverge for too long.
[gets down off soapbox and cracks open a case of Guiness for the folks he may have offended]
"and now you know...the rest of the story.."
sorry, that was the best Paul Harvey impression I can do.

[IRTradRU?]

Another statistic I saw, don't ask me where, says that 50% of the CEOs in the country do not have a degree. When I was working the common phrase was, If I need a PHD I'll hire one.

Ron

I think that statistic may included any company... for instance, if you own a construction company that builds homes, and you employ just a handful of employees, you can be considered the "CEO", and the only degree you'd need is the one you got from the University of Hard Knocks.

I'd bet that if you reviewed the C.V.s of CEOs of public companies, that the number of degress and advanced degrees is much higher.

[djm]

what happens when it can no longer go on?

Its only a guess, but there will be some amount of social upheaval, protests, government fixing by concerned interests (already happening now) to entrench their interests, and a small amount of socialization to ensure everyone gets access to some level of food and shelter. This wil repeat cyclicly downward until no-one is happy, because, truth is, there just isn't enough of everything to share equitably. Look what happened to Russia, both pre- and post-Glasnost.

It may sound like there's a lot of wealth if there are more and more millionaires, but the population has also grown, so if you were to spread that wealth out equally to all, no-one would have as much as they have now, except the very lowest rungs of our current society. If you want to maintain current levels of wealth, even increase them, then the first order of business would have to be to reduce the population. On the other hand, we could choose to become the next India or China .....

djm

[MurphyStout]

Well Marx said that people were content living out a lie (freedom of upward mobility, everybody is equal, justice, and satisfying false needs) but he said when the gap between the lie and their actual lives got big enough revolt and social change would occur. I'm no Marxist but if you look at history there's a pretty good case for his logic. I don't know about us turning into Communists though.

[susnfx]

I haven't thought deeply about this, so these are really off-the-top-of-my-head ideas, and at the risk of getting this into really deep politics (I am perfectly aware that the present administration didn't start this gap widening and I'm not placing blame there, so don't start!), could the scenario go like this:

Because it has become impossible for anyone but the wealthy or people who have wealthy backers to get elected to national office (and thus owe the wealthy backers), it goes without saying that the wealthy are having things more their way, right? They've got the power.

So more and more, things are going to go their way since they're the ones in power (e.g., laws that favor business over the environment, etc.) Thus we're already past the point of everyday people having much say in government. And the leaning toward the wealthy/powerful will only increase as this goes on. So we have the wealthy enjoying the good life and wielding the power.

Meanwhile the environment is going to hell in a handbasket, paychecks can't even begin to cover the cost of living, crime is rampant... (pretty bleak, huh?).

I figure the scenario is almost past the point of no return, what with the wealthy basically in power now, so is there ANYTHING that can stop this landslide from eventually happening?

Susan

[MurphyStout]

Would you trade your situation to that of a serf? We humans progress at a very slow rate and we take almost as many steps back as we do forward. As Marx said, each increase in socio-economic conditions gives rise to the next and that is how progress is made. I would just prefer it if we used our improvements to better ourselves instead of just wanting to have more stuff.

Don't worry Susan, if things get bad enough we'll kill all the rich people with guns, socide-bombs, and whatever else we think up.

[susnfx]

Don't worry Susan, if things get bad enough we'll kill all the rich people with guns, socide-bombs, and whatever else we think up.

You mean we'd get spoils!? I always wanted spoils. I'll live in a "compound" and enjoy my spoils. That's what I'll do.

Susan