Freedom

[missy]

Arto - I don't feel that way at all (that all hate Americans).

I feel that the media tends to go out of it's way to portray this. But, just as I don't form my opinions of others based on what I see in the media, I think most people are intelligent enough to do the same.

But - being sensible doesn't make news.

Missy

[Bloomfield]

hmm - well - I guess sharing my office and working daily with someone from Peru means I don't know anything about Peru, huh? Hey - Consuelo - forget all we've talked about over the years.......

Yes, you're right. We're making fun of you. :roll:

Why do I actually have to LIVE in another country to have understanding and empathy for it and it's people?

Because culture is complex and contextual. You can, of course, understand things to a certain extent: and trying to do so is a good thing.

About the cultural festivals: If you were from a foreign country and went to the cultural festival of that country in say, Ohio, chances are you'd be appalled rather than pleased and that you'd feel the impression given was entirely superficial and missed the culture of your country. That has been my experience and the experience to everyone I've spoken to in that situation.

The experience when you set yourself to find out about another culture is like peeling an onion: successive layers of deeper meaning. And you feel that with each layer you had it wrong before. It's all very subtle and interconnected. Since people from a different culture are part of that culture (but don't necessarily understand it like someone regarding the culture from the outside would), speaking to people from different cultures will give you an impression, but a distorted one. What people say, and what it means, are different things, and without a good sense for the culture, it's very hard to sort out.

Finally, without the immersion in another culture, it's hard to understand what part of your own views (and personality) is a product not (only) of your own character, but of your culture. Many things we think make sense, do so only in the context of our own culture. You see everything through tinted glasses, and it takes time, distance, and effort to take those glasses off.

[Arto_Vallivirta]

Missy, everyone doesn't hate Americans. Americans just tend to think so. Many people disagree with your politics, but that's a different thing.
/Arto

[missy]

Bloom wrote:
"If you were from a foreign country and went to the cultural festival of that country in say, Ohio, chances are you'd be appalled rather than pleased and that you'd feel the impression given was entirely superficial and missed the culture of your country."

Consuelo had to leave for the day, but I'll ask her tomorrow, since she was at the "Cinco De Mayo" festival that entire weekend, dancing and participating.

And, of course, I know that living in a country is as lot more important than learning or visiting one - to really know what goes on. But, like I said, barring that, I try to do my best to find out about others. Sorry if that means I'm an ignorant American. But - since I would hazard a guess that the majority of Americans CAN'T travel to other countries, what would you have one do???

Missy

[Bloomfield]

Oh ya Bloomie' old chap,
The thing about rights is still a bit more complicated than that. It has been argued that most of the rights are, as you said, rights guaranteed by state eg. legal rights. But there's some rights that are universal. These are called moral rights. As a legal issue right is about state and individuals but as a philosophical concept it's more complicated.
For reference, one of your very own, Joel Feinberg: "Social Philosophy". Written in the seventies if I remember correctly.

/Arto

1770s right? Yeah, well, that thing with the universal rights didn't work out as planed. Of course, that's still the party line, but when it comes right down to the police cudgels, it gets very difficult indeed to maintain anything resembling universal moral rights. But yes, of course, it gets complicated.

[Bloomfield]

And, of course, I know that living in a country is as lot more important than learning or visiting one - to really know what goes on. But, like I said, barring that, I try to do my best to find out about others. Sorry if that means I'm an ignorant American. But - since I would hazard a guess that the majority of Americans CAN'T travel to other countries, what would you have one do???

Where does the ignorant part come in, and where the American? I wasn't calling anyone ignorant, nor speaking about Americans.

What would I have one do, in order to achieve what? If you ask me, what does it take to really understand another culture, the answer is "living there" and it doesn't depend on whether you can afford to or not, or want to or not. If you want to learn chess, the way to do it is to practice, and that answer doesn't change whether you can afford a chess set or not.

Should everyone learn chess? Should everyone strive to live abroad? You tell me. It's not that I would have you do something or other.

[The Weekenders]

Bloomfield said it very well earlier. Both he and Peter have had the experience of being from another country and living for an extended time in a new country. There is simply no substitute for it, not even extensive travel really. You can learn from having many foreigners as workmates and friends but its still not the same.

I had an in-between experience as an American Field Service exchange student when I was 16, living in India for three months. I went back a year later and just traveled around by myself (ironically, Stony and I were in India at the same time). On the first trip, I lived with a family as a member of that family. AFS students were indoctrinated and educated to make the most of this cultural experience.

It changed me forever and I still think that every young person should somehow get out of Dodge and travel around before settling into the system. Though some would argue that it didn't work on me (groan), I was completely moved about living in a country with an ancient and continuous DIFFERENT culture and I picked up lessons from it.

To me, your feelings, Missy, about this bring up an age-old conundrum.

When you are only ever in one village, ANY person who has been from another village and comes to yours has an automatic advantage. I think that a lot of anti-Semitism over the ages is caused not just by xenophobia but by the perception and cliche of the "wandering Jew," being more clever, manipulative and opportunistic for having seen so many other places and situations. But its not confined to ethnicity, it can even just be a wandering salesman for example in the old days before radio, TV etc. Just by virtue of having made that passage, the person has experienced more. And further, I even wonder if a person who has made the choice to leave the country of their birth can ever truly understand to a person who would never consider it, and vice versa.

It may be natural to feel put upon by Bloomie and Peter and it may be up to them, having the different perspective, to be gentle with others who lack that perspective. And worse of all, it may be hard to learn from their experiences until it happens to you!

[jGilder]

About the cultural festivals: If you were from a foreign country and went to the cultural festival of that country in say, Ohio, chances are you'd be appalled rather than pleased and that you'd feel the impression given was entirely superficial and missed the culture of your country. That has been my experience and the experience to everyone I've spoken to in that situation.

You can also take this a step further and imagine what it might be like to be in another country and attend a "Cultural Festival" of say… Ohio. You might be shocked at how far off it was from the real thing.

I agree with Bloom and Peter that until you've walked in the shoes you don't know how they'll fit. Because I play Irish music and I'm involved with the local Irish community I've had ample experiences with local Paddy's Day events and such. On one of my trips to Ireland I was there on Paddy's Day -- the difference is staggering. I’m certain this is true if you compare any other country’s cultural festival in the US to the actual country itself.

[Bloomfield]

It may be natural to feel put upon by Bloomie and Peter and it may be up to them, having the superior perspective, to be gentle with others who lack that perspective. And worse of all, it may be hard to learn from their experiences until it happens to you!

I don't know about "superior" perspective. Different, perhaps.

And it's not a particularly daring proposition if you turn it around: Of course you are going to understand something about a culture and country after a few years living there that you didn't understand before moving there, or on the first day you arrived.

Sorry if anyone feels put upon by me, I don't mean to.

[Jack]

Very few Americans travel abroad frequently, and even fewer endeavour to live in another country for any stretch of time. There are even many who live their entire lives within the State of their birth. This causes ignorance to other cultures outside of their schema, and therefore, these other cultures do not "exist" in their reality. Sadly, even when the existence of these culture becomes apparant, the still do not "exist" to certain closed minds....

I agree with the sentiment pretty much, but I think a person also has to understand that because the US is such a huge country, a person could very well never leave their state of birth and still have traveled quite extensively.

And, of course, music - about the only culture I don't have a lot of representation from in my CD collection is Asian

I don't think that anybody has pointed this out yet, but if they have, forgive my repetition: there is no such thing as an "Asian culture" or an "Asian music." Asia is the largest continent in the world and has thousands of different peoples, cultures, and languages.

By the way, Missy, you (like me, of course) are a bigoted inbred backwater doofus with no teeth who doesn't understand a damned thing (except "war" and "cornbread"), and you will never become as enlightened as Californians or Europeans. Haven't you figured that out yet?

[missy]

ok - let me try again.......

I try to "get to know" others. I don't care if they are from another country, or this country (believe me, people from other areas of the US are just as "foreign" in their thinking to me, as people from another nation). Of course, I can't say I understand the other country completely because I haven't lived there - but I do try to understand and am truly interested in the differences and similarities.
I know a lot of "Americans" that have travelled or lived in another country. Depending on why (school, work, etc.) it can still be a "false" type of living - you may still be with mostly expats and not with the "natives" of the country.
I would love to travel to other countries - but I also would love to travel to other parts of THIS country. Again - I just don't have the time and money to do this now. Maybe someday.

I'm just trying to say that being able to live in other countries doesn't make one "better" or "worse" than someone who lives their lives in only one country. It just makes for a different experience.

As to the Asian comment - I know they are very different. We were "taught" at work, however, to refer to China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Australia, the Philipines, etc. as "Asian" or "Asian Rim" countries. So - I'm just trying to use the "Politically Correct" term.

Missy

[Jack]

As to the Asian comment - I know they are very different. We were "taught" at work, however, to refer to China, Japan, Korea, Malaysia, Australia, the Philipines, etc. as "Asian" or "Asian Rim" countries. So - I'm just trying to use the "Politically Correct" term.

I understand. "Asian" can mean a person or thing from Russia, Polynesia, Israel, China, Nepal, Turkey, Pakistan, Georgia, India, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, a part of Egypt...and the list goes on almost forever. If I try to imagine a culture or music that all those places have in common, it seems pretty impossible.

[spittin_in_the_wind]

And further, I even wonder if a person who has made the choice to leave the country of their birth can ever relate to a person who would never consider it, and vice versa.

Hmmm. I think it's possible!

Robin

[The Weekenders]

edited, Robin and Bloo.

[Lambchop]

Missy, everyone doesn't hate Americans. Americans just tend to think so. Many people disagree with your politics, but that's a different thing.
/Arto

Arto, while everyone has been talking about how Americans don't know anything about other cultures, you've made two statements that you probably would not have made had you lived in the US and been familiar with OUR culture. You're just as prejudiced and misinformed about us as you think we are of you.

The first is the one above, that Americans just tend to think that everyone hates us. In fact, the majority of Americans either don't know if we're liked or not, or they think we're well-liked. There is a perception among those who travel to Europe that we're not liked, but that is a small minority. Virtually everyone else thinks we're highly popular and even appreciated for what we did during WWII to save Europe and what we did after to save the world from communism. (And, I might add, you're not even close to being old enough to remember any of this.)

That's one reason 9/11 was such a shock. Nobody really grasped that anyone didn't like us enough to do something like that. Now, we accept that Osama Bin Laden's associates don't like us, but still we think most everyone else thinks we're just dandy.

The other thing you said related to knowing about the US from American movies and TV. You absolutely cannot have a good view of the US from that because movies and TV do not reflect the reality of life here. They reflect fantasy, sensationalism, and craziness. I don't even watch the stuff because it's so utterly ludicrous!

There is a UK internet board for British people who enjoy visiting Orlando and Disneyworld. The people who post there believe they know all about the US and about Americans because they have visited Orlando and been to Disneyworld. You can tell this when you read their posts. They think the Disney hotels and restaurants and swimming pools are typical America. They think the horrible food they get in those places--at Disneyworld!--is typical of how Americans eat. They even have lists of British pubs in Orlando, so that they can continue eating British style food while they are here, and they think that is typical American. For that matter, they believe fast-food from Hardees is what the typical American eats three times a day!

Those people have been to an area of my state that was specifically built to accommodate tourists. It is FAKE. It's Universal Studios and Mickey Mouse. But they think they've seen real American culture. After all, it's just like they see on TV and in the movies!

It is really very difficult to get an understanding of other cultures. Most of the time, our perceptions of others are colored by our own realities. Try as we might, we can't get past that.

We can't understand you, but we think we do. You do not understand us, but you think you do. What you really understand is the image of us that you have constructed in your mind based on what you think you've seen of us, but what you've seen has little basis in reality.

Haranguing others because they can't afford to travel or spend a few years in other countries does no good whatsoever. Some of us just cannot do that, for one reason or another. We, unfortunately, have to make do with friends and acquaintances from other countries and with participation in international boards like this.

These political bashing sessions are petty and mean-spirited.