More language fun.

[herbivore12]

The bombshell-that-turned-into-a-language-thread found here:

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=28637

Led me to thinking of other ways in which language has gone all . . . different. How things have changed over the years.

I'm interested a little bit in the terms that used to have a gender connotation but no longer do. "Aviator," for example, was the masculine counterpart to "aviatrix." That latter term seems to have disappeared with Amelia Earhart, as cskinner probably knows. In fact, we don't use that "-rix" ending to feminize anything anymore, really. Presumably you could have a "bloviatrix" or an "editrix." (I guess here in the San Francisco area we still have a fairly active population of those who call themselves "dominatrix"...)

Gotta also respect the Japanese, very gender-specific in almost every other way (as I understand it), for having an ungendered honorific -- "san" -- instead of our "Mr." and "Mrs.", and "Ms." -- or "senor," "senora," and "senorita" -- these examples being even more sexist, of course, in that they distinguish not only between men and women but also between married and unmarried women. But not married and unmarried men.

And again here in San Francisco there are probably lots of people who would tell us that there are more than two sexes. They are the same people who get angry at me for trying to distinguish between "sex" and "gender," who get really mad if I try to give a basic lesson in chromosomes. They really hate that.

But you know, if I were the kind of person who put out fires for a living, I would totally rather be known as a "fire fighter" than a "fireman." "Fire fighter" = much cooler.

[Wormdiet]

I always kinda liked the word "brewster" = female brewer.

[Redwolf]

English has terms for both unmarried men and unmarried women, though only the latter is widely used anymore. Unmarried men are "master" and unmarried women are "miss." Formal invitations in the South are still addressed to "Master so-and-so."

I detest "Ms". Such an ugly, contrived little word. It sounds like some old cowboy from a bad western trying to say "Mrs". I'm Mrs Nickel, and my daughter is Miss Nickel.

The "feminine" endings to certain words denoting occupation were themselves rather contrived, and I'm just as glad to see them disappearing. There's nothing about the words "actor," "aviator" or "waiter" that indicate the sex of the person doing the job, and thus no reason to add a feminine ending.

Redwolf

[Darwin]

Gotta also respect the Japanese, very gender-specific in almost every other way (as I understand it), for having an ungendered honorific -- "san" -- instead of our "Mr." and "Mrs.", and "Ms." -- or "senor," "senora," and "senorita" -- these examples being even more sexist, of course, in that they distinguish not only between men and women but also between married and unmarried women. But not married and unmarried men.

The Chinese have a history of being pretty sexist, but the Chinese languages have gender-free pronouns.

All this goes to show that language isn't quite as important to attitudes as many assume. I seriously doubt that you can change a person's attitudes simply by changing its language. However, you can at least bring unconscious attitudes to a person's attention by focusing on its language. Then it may at least consider whether it needs to change, itself.

(Isn't "it" much nicer than "he or she" , or the aesthetically offensive "s/he"?)

[Walden]

In theological, or, rather, dogmatic matters, we find the term mediatrix discussed.

[Redwolf]

(Isn't "it" much nicer than "he or she" , or the aesthetically offensive "s/he"?)

I prefer the generic "he," which serves equally well when the gender is unknown. In most languages, the masculine form is also the default. "It" is unacceptable unless one is speaking of inanimate objects...I find it much more aesthetically offensive than "s/he" (which I only find faintly ridiculous).

Redwolf

[Walden]

Notice the difference of effect between Tyndale's version of the first four verses of St. John's Gospel and that of the Authorized Version.

Tyndale.
In the beginning was the word, and that word was with God: and God was that word.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was.
In it was life; And the life was the light of men;

Authorized.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

[Matt_Paris]

The Chinese have a history of being pretty sexist, but the Chinese languages have gender-free pronouns.

Well, yes and no... He or she are pronounced the same way ("ta"), but the ideograms are different.

[Wombat]

Is the Terminator a termanatrix with no trix?

[MarkB]

Silly! Trixs are for kids!



Doing a Google image search for "trix" to get the above image, the very first picture was more of the idea that Wombat might of had in mind.

MarkB

[jbarter]

English has terms for both unmarried men and unmarried women, though only the latter is widely used anymore. Unmarried men are "master" and unmarried women are "miss." Formal invitations in the South are still addressed to "Master so-and-so."

I detest "Ms". Such an ugly, contrived little word. It sounds like some old cowboy from a bad western trying to say "Mrs". I'm Mrs Nickel, and my daughter is Miss Nickel.
Redwolf

Just a couple of points. Correctly used the terms master and mister in English should refer to age, not marital status.

On the female side of things the terms Miss, Mrs, and Ms are not in fact words. They are abbreviations of the word mistress and, more importantly, are completely interchangeable regardless of marital status. However, be warned, if you intend to point this out to someone who's insisting on using a particular one of these you'd better be ready to duck and cover.

[emmline]

Notice the difference of effect between Tyndale's version of the first four verses of St. John's Gospel and that of the Authorized Version.

Tyndale.
In the beginning was the word, and that word was with God: and God was that word.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was.
In it was life; And the life was the light of men;

Authorized.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Wow. So who authorized the authorized version?

[jbarter]

Notice the difference of effect between Tyndale's version of the first four verses of St. John's Gospel and that of the Authorized Version.

Tyndale.
In the beginning was the word, and that word was with God: and God was that word.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was.
In it was life; And the life was the light of men;

Authorized.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Wow. So who authorized the authorized version?

King James

[Brewster]

Wormdiet--guess I'm going to have to go to Europe to get that sex change operation....

Brewster (but you can call me Brewstah if you're from New England)

[jim stone]

Hey, what about 'dominatirix'?

One I especially liked from the 80s was 'Madame Chairperson...'