Rising gasoline prices - USA only or Worldwide Issue

[Jayhawk]

Jeff - that's an interesting twist, and I'm not sure about it. In my city, if poor people move into a neighborhood there is rich flight to the farther out suburbs...

I was also thinking it's not pure poverty that leads to crime, but urban poverty. Here's my theory:

Poor rural folks tend to have some land which allows for a bit (often a significant bit) of self-sufficiency. Urban dwellers in apartments can't grow anything except on their windowsill, can't keep any livestock (heck a few chickens can be invalvuable), and often housing situations are overcrowded (rat studies support overcrowding leads to violence).

Here's my example (my parents):
Mom - grew up on a farm in Missouri. The family still drove a mule wagon to town until the late 1940s, Christmas presents only happened if grandpa was able to get something when he went hunting for furs in the winter, and he built his own house. Many other folks in their neck of the woods (so to speak) also lived just as poorly, and crime simply didn't happen.
Dad - grew up in inner city Oklahoma City. Exceptionally poor, my dad supported the family by working full-time starting at age 13 while still going to school full-time. On his block, he was the only boy not to go to prison or be killed before age 21 (I seem to recall there were 6 or 8 boys).

Eric

[missy]

I dunno - it's kinda the "chicken or the egg" question.....

About 15 years ago, the city took control of several four family apartments around the corner from me. They turned these into Section 8 housing (for non-US, Section 8 is subsidized housing, usually rent is based on income - if there is any).
Most of the families that moved into these buildings followed what became a soon predictable pattern. No father evidenced anywhere. The apartments were not to contain more than 2 children per household - many had a LOT more there. Soon the buildings were being destroyed, yards ripped up, dirty diapers dropped out of windows, broken down cars all over. Police or life squad contantly being called (by both neighbors and the tenants) over and over.
I was also a member of a neighborhood block watch at the time. We contacted the city, asking what their policy was for renting, and basically why they were using buildings in a middle class neighborhood for this. I was told "we are hoping your middle class values rub off on the tenants".

Instead, the attitudes of the tenants began to rub off on the neighbors.

My kids were quite young then, and for a time, thought that all of a certain type of person never had a father - only ate junk food and dropped garbage all over - skipped school all the time, etc. That is what THEY saw and were exposed to. We had a playhouse. When the kids from those apartments would come down and play, I'd overhear (and correct right away!) language such as "shut-up and get me a beer B*&(H". Nate had a radio out once, and they changed the station to a rap one. Nate says "That's NOT music"

I don't think "poor" necessarily begates crime. I also think "poor" now a days is totally different than "poor" when I was growing up, and agree that "poor" was a totally different concept at one time in a rural area vs. a city.

Missy

[Montana]

I say dump the minimum wage and institute a maximum wage in its place. Make the maximum salary anyone can earn 25 times the minimum salary anyone can earn.

I think this is a great idea! People can still work to earn higher wages but no one can get the ludicris sums that upper 2% get now. Sorry... if it's a matter of value, you can't convince me that anyone can do enough work to justify some CEO salaries.

And Missy, you bring up an important point about being poor. When my mom was growning up in the 40's and poor, it meant you found ways to conserve and worked hard to overcome your situation. You knew to appreciate the things you had. Unfortunately for some of the folks living near you, it sounds like they have not learned to value much.

Maybe it comes down to what a number of people have today - a feeling of entitlement. You should just be able to have something without really having to work for it. Who knows? What I do know is that there have been a number of sites in our town proposed for Section 8 and they are fought tooth-and-nail by the nieghborhoods. Unfortunate since such housing has to go somewhere and some of the plans were very good. But that doesn't mean that they'd stay that way...

[BillChin]

Bill - part of my reply that was eaten by my computer was on Rockefeller.

Do I think he was immoral? Yes, I do, and no I don't. We're all immoral in some ways. He certainly did a huge amount of good, but he also walked on and over a lot of folks to accumulate his wealth and certainly enjoyed seeing his name in lights when it came to his charitable contributions (I'm not fond of vanity).

I'd suggest reading the book "Mr. Anonymous" by Herbert C. Cornuelle. It's about William Volker, a multi-millionare in Kansas City at the turn of the prior century. Haven't heard of him? Or only heard of his business? Well, the reason for that is a significant portion of his charitable works were anonymous. I'd personally suggest him as a role model over Rockefeller any day.

I'm not advocating Communism (an interesting theory, but not realistic in terms of behavior) as you seem to imply that I am. I am advocating compassion and care for others. I'm sure I'm fairly socialistic in your view, but as many of our European friends could tell you that doesn't make me a communist.

As for a suggestion for dealing with the disparity between the rich and the poor, I have a suggestion. We as a society are perfectly OK with setting a minimum wage. We can all agree that there is nothing immoral about that (even if it is too low to realistically survive on). So, it's OK to legislate a baseline pay for the good of society.

I say dump the minimum wage and institute a maximum wage in its place. Make the maximum salary anyone can earn 25 times the minimum salary anyone can earn. If we can legislate how poor the poor can be, I see no reason we can't reverse this and legislate how rich the rich will be. Naturally, this will never happen because our the House and Senate members are rarely poor and it would hurt them and their rich friends - even if it might benefit the society as a whole. Just a thought...feel free to take aim and fire, but at least I have given thought to issue.

As for revolution, I really don't want a revolution - usually nasty things with lots of death. A morale revolution would be good, though, but that won't happen until people realize the gap between the rich and poor leads to many of our problems today. Just because, historically, there has been a large gap between the rich and poor doesn't make it right. We're evolving, physically and technologically, but unfortunately we're not morally evolving as quickly as we are in the prior two areas.

Eric

It is an interesting proposal, 25 times the minimum as the maximum. I typed up various arguments against it, but I believe I have more than made my points in my previous posts. If your opinion is unchanged, it is unlikely that anything further I have to say will have much effect. If a maximum wage at 25 times minimum is your serious well thought out solution, I say go for it, and try to gain as much support as you can for it. I do not support the idea, but good luck on convincing others.

Instead of further arguments, I will leave you with a joke and a story. First the joke, Comrade Brehnev, a former leader of the old USSR when the ideal was for all comrades to own nothing (property is theft) and make exactly the same salary, takes his mother on a tour. Brehnev shows off his huge limousine, his palatial house, his summer home by the lake, his luxurious boat. His mom becomes very concerned, and says "son, what will happen to you if the Communists find out about all this?"

The true story is about one of the few CEOs that I know personally. I worked with him for a short time and he was one of hardest working, brightest people I have met in my wide travels. When I knew him, he enjoyed riding his bike to work, even though he could well afford a car.

My friend ran away from home at a young age dropping out of high school because of a difficult home environment. His only income was a paper route, and he lived with another young man in similar circumstances. They were so poor that they did not have money for heat and burned the advertising circulars from the newspapers to fuel their stove for heat.

Later on, he met his wife to be and moved in with her. She worked at a menial job while he went to school to get an Associates degree. His first job after getting his degree was with a small start up. His pay was low, and his paychecks often bounced. He had to do everything, because the boss was incompetent and the business failing. Eventually, the business folded, and he reached greener pastures. He worked for a couple of large companies and some smaller ones. At each place, he was a stellar performer. After being an executive at several smaller companies he decided to roll the dice and start his own company. Today, he is CEO, and while his salary is below average for that position, I would bet that his company will grow and his herd will increase.

Do I think he and his family deserve the money that he makes? Absolutely, every cent of it--it could not have happened to a more deserving person.

Do I think there are overpaid CEOs? Absolutely. However, I think a great deal of the phenomenon is an economic shift with top TV personalities, movie stars, and professional athletes all getting more of the cream during the past 20 years. I think an analysis of CEO salaries would show a close parallel with many of these other highly paid people. And no, I don't think someone like Katie Curic at $15 million a year, or Alex Rodriguez at $25 million, Jay Leno at $50 million is immoral just because of the size of their paycheck.
+ Bill

[Walden]

It is an interesting proposal, 25 times the minimum as the maximum. I typed up various arguments against it, but I believe I have more than made my points in my previous posts. If your opinion is unchanged, it is unlikely that anything further I have to say will have much effect. If a maximum wage at 25 times minimum is your serious well thought out solution, I say go for it, and try to gain as much support as you can for it. I do not support the idea, but good luck on convincing others.

There once was a man from Nantucket
Who kept all his cash in a bucket;
But his daughter named Nan
Ran away with a man.
As for the bucket, Nantucket

We learn a few things from this stanza. Firstly, we learn that the man from Nantucket kept his money in a bucket. Not just some of his cash, but all of it. It's not good to keep all your eggs in one basket, so to speak. He ought to have diversified. He could have invested in a retirement fund, or in so many things. He even could have kept it in a savings account, but, rather, we read that he did none of these things. The man from Nantucket kept all his cash in a silly old bucket!

We next learn that he had a daughter, Nan by name, possibly Nanette or Nancy... we do not know... perhaps her name was simply Nan. What we do get, though, is a glimpse of her character. She ran away with a man. We do not get the feeling that she was properly betrothed and had her parents' blessing, prior to proper nuptials, rather, it can be inferred that she eloped! This does not sound like a responsible thing to do, though, of course we do not know the entirety of the situation and what their home life was like, so it is hard to say too much, whether harsh or otherwise.

In the last line we see a sharp turn, as Nan, desirous of her father's property, took his entire subsistence, in the form of his bucket of cash. We have seen no motive. Perhaps the man whom she ran away with was greedy of filthy lucre. Perhaps Nan was greedy. More likely, I suppose, they were of one mind, though the fact that it only mentions Nan's involvement, could be indicative that the man was innocent of this aspect of the goings on.

In the second stanza we read,

Pa followed the pair to Pawtucket
The man and girl with the bucket
An he said to the man,
"You're welcome to Nan."
As for the bucket, Pawtucket

We find, in this verse, some resolution. Firstly, we find that the man went to Pawtucket and gave his blessing to their union. This is good, one supposes, inasmuch as it is proper for families to be in accord.

Secondly we see that the man, while condoning his daughter's elopement, laid claim to and took possession of his property, in the form of the bucket. No indication is given whether he gave a dowry, though one supposes that dowries are now not a particularly common custom in western society.

[Jeff Stallard]

We learn a few things from this stanza. Firstly, we learn that the man from Nantucket kept his money in a bucket. Not just some of his cash, but all of it.

Hahaha, if you don't have a degree in English, I'll eat my hat! I'm getting flashbacks!!