Cross-cultural psychology & music

[BrassBlower]

For some reason, Dorian and Mixolydian mode both give me sort of a dreamy "I'm in love" feeling. Maybe it's that natural sixth bumping up against that flatted seventh.

[markbell]

For some reason, Dorian and Mixolydian mode both give me sort of a dreamy "I'm in love" feeling. Maybe it's that natural sixth bumping up against that flatted seventh.

Oooh! The early American hymn, Wondrous Love is in Dorian mode. It's haunting!

[Wormdiet]

I'm a mixolydian/dorian guy meself. I guess it's from a heavy drone-imprinting at an early age.

I *love* fast-paced dorian tunes. Get a good accompanist (on anything, really) to drive the beat and watchout!

[dubhlinn]

There's a fair few Bluegrass and Cajun tunes, which can be played on fiddle, where the first part is played in Am in the lower register and then the second part is played in Amaj in the higher register.They often have very much the same notation but the sharps bring in a whole new attitude to the vibe.
I am hopeless at names but "the grumbling old man and his wife" is one that springs to mind.
The Cajun stuff I can't even pronounce let alone spell.

Slan,
D.

[talasiga]

For some reason, Dorian and Mixolydian mode both give me sort of a dreamy "I'm in love" feeling. Maybe it's that natural sixth bumping up against that flatted seventh.

I used to think I was Phrygian but I now I know that I am more. Mixolydian (whether indo or celtic) always evokes highland for me and Dorian the valley, the gorge, the moist bed of a waterfall.

I am going to do a little poll for you all. Please see

here

[Dale]

Music lovers from everywhere and everytime could tell you this without any studies.

Yeah, well, that's behavioral research for you. It too often goes to great lengths to tell you stuff you already knew.

[Darwin]

Why?

:roll:

You ticklem babies. Babies laugh tomas. Any place in world same same. see?

That is to say,
Hey Rocky look! Presto - no words - all babies laugh when you tickle them.

As usual, not getting the point of my question at all. Not one iota.

I took your "why" to mean: "Why do people have a common response to music across cultures?" If that's what you meant, then I'd take talasiga's response to mean: "Because our response to music is somehow based on our common physiology--just like our response to tickling." This would have been my answer, though I'm sure I would have put it less poetically.

Of course, I may have misinterpreted either or both of you. Sometimes it happens...

[BillChin]

I have a song that I have "written" that just defies words for me. I put written in quotes because the song seems to have formed on its own, with little cognitive effort on my part, and I just began to play it - low pipe, high pipe, anything.

It is a slow song, E minor, and very contemplative. I presented it untitled to my mandolin teacher (who, to my knowledge, has no active religion), and after he had played it a couple of times, remarked that it seemed very spiritual.

I have given up trying to put words to the song. It feels like colorizing "Casablanca," if that makes any sense. The most I have been able to do is title it "Prayer in E Minor." Words, especially poetry, can convey and invoke emotion, but they can also be woefully inappropriate or inadequate.

Mark,

What you describe is a common experience for some songwriters. Joannie Mitchell described it as "nights when the blarney is flowing." Her live-in partner said Mitchell would sit at the piano and sing and play in a trance-like state. John Lennon has spoken about his songwriting in terms of channeling, with him playing the role of a medium. I like to use the same kind of description. When "it" is flowing, I am tapping into a greater consciousness. I have had this kind of experience many a time, and it is extremely powerful and spiritual. Sometimes it is melodies, sometimes words, sometimes both.

There is also a craft side to songwriting, where hard work plays a big role. However, the creative, spiritual side is what keeps me coming back to it.
+ Bill

[Darwin]

There's a fair few Bluegrass and Cajun tunes, which can be played on fiddle, where the first part is played in Am in the lower register and then the second part is played in Amaj in the higher register.They often have very much the same notation but the sharps bring in a whole new attitude to the vibe.
I am hopeless at names but "the grumbling old man and his wife" is one that springs to mind.
The Cajun stuff I can't even pronounce let alone spell.

"Cattle in the Cane" has the first part in A mixolydian and the second is probably A dorian (but it's hexatonic, so it might just as well be A aeolian). Until I noticed that the first part had a G instead of G#, I thought it was in A major. (I've never played it with anyone else, so I'd never needed to work out the chords.)

Anyhow, the change in mode is very nice, going from a sort of "straight ahead" feeling to something with a bit more tension.

[TonyHiggins]

Whether I'm playing slow airs or Irish dance tunes, I hear the phrasing like speech- sentences with pauses, questions with answers, reiteration of important ideas. If I can make that happen, I feel most satisfied with my playing. I enjoy listening to singing in a language I don't understand. The songs make sense anyway (emotionally) and the voice becomes another instrument without me being distracted by words. Overall, I prefer music without words to songs in English.

I've heard it said that our emotions are our connection to the spiritual or divine. If that's so, it puts music in a sacred/mystical category. (Or, maybe, it's just ape gibberish. ) Or, maybe, apes are spiritual. Or, maybe, I should shut up.
Tony

[Flyingcursor]

Dale - no insult to the the profession intended.

Darwin. I get your drift. I had skipped past a few points in my logic. The question was, why do modes, keys, chord progressions cause the psychological response they do.

Sorry Tal, I misunderstood your misunderstanding.

Dorian is my favorite. Phrygian is cool for it's visceral response. I always picture scantily clad dancing harem girls feeding me grapes while waving big wicker fans. The ultimate in male chauvinism.
I wish my wife would do that! She IS phrygian mode in my opinion.

[Darwin]

The researchers also think that these emotional-expression musical rules are related to human language.

Nothing that follows has the slightest thing to do with music. Presumably they mean verbal communication, rather than actual language?

Soft music and quiet speech are probably linked in the mind, and both are linked to sadness (broadly stated). This may derive from the biology of sound production. When people are sad, their vocal cords relax. This muffles the voice, making it likely that sad people will sing or speak softly. When people are angry or happy, the vocal cords tense up, which makes for louder vocal sounds.

This seems a tad simplistic (some of the angriest speech I've heard has been almost too soft--and tense--to hear), but the general principle may be valid.

Humans, and maybe lower animals,

Hah! "Lower animals" sounds really dated to me.

could learn early on to link loud volume with intense emotion or could even be hard-wired with the association.

I tend to go for the hard-wired explanation. Hard-wiring may not be flexible, but it's very efficient. A young animal might not survive its first "learning experience" with an angry adult. I seem to recall a film that demonstrated that very young babies reacted to different facial expressions.

I hope that everyone here will go to their local maternity wards and try snarling at some newborns. Then, report how many of them seem frightened. This is how true science is done. (But PLEASE don't report how many parents clobber you, as that might deter other researchers.)

"It is really central for us to determine the emotional state of others," says one of the researchers in the article, "The voice may be even more important than the face," in expressing emotion.

An obvious advantage of the voice is that you don't have to be looking in the right direction--and it works just fine on the darkest nights.

Tempo may also be linked to biology--specifically heart rate and respiration. A decade of psychological reserach finds that slow, sad, music slows the heart rate, while fast music picks up pulse and respiration in the listener. As such, music may communicate emotion by actually inducing the emotion in listeners.

That's interesting, and very possibly correct. However, as far as the expression and detection of emotion goes, I don't think that it's all just side effects of tension and relaxation. The communication of emotion (in both directions) has a positive value of its own (as the previous quoted chunk points out). And, not only do we want to determine the emotional state of others, but we want others to know how we feel. We whimper to get sympathy and growl to induce fear, and even human infants and other animals that don't have language know how to do this.

[markbell]

Mark,

What you describe is a common experience for some songwriters. Joannie Mitchell described it as "nights when the blarney is flowing." Her live-in partner said Mitchell would sit at the piano and sing and play in a trance-like state. John Lennon has spoken about his songwriting in terms of channeling, with him playing the role of a medium. I like to use the same kind of description. When "it" is flowing, I am tapping into a greater consciousness. I have had this kind of experience many a time, and it is extremely powerful and spiritual. Sometimes it is melodies, sometimes words, sometimes both.

There is also a craft side to songwriting, where hard work plays a big role. However, the creative, spiritual side is what keeps me coming back to it.
+ Bill

Bill,

Thanks for your reflections on my post. I'd like to say that it was a "common" experience for me, but it has only happened this one time. I have wanted (and tried) to write music before, and it just never "happened." It was dopey, mechanical, and completely cerebral. This one came from somewhere utterly different.

Music is an odd experience for me. I have studied a reasonable amount of theory, and have lots of performing experience, both vocal and instrumental. The theoretical and intellectual understanding occasionally helps, but often impedes the creation of real music for me. When I am having trouble with making music, I am often "over-thinking" and just need to abandon myself into the process.

Mark

[talasiga]

Why?

:roll:

You ticklem babies. Babies laugh tomas. Any place in world same same. see?

That is to say,
Hey Rocky look! Presto - no words - all babies laugh when you tickle them.

As usual, not getting the point of my question at all. Not one iota.

I took your "why" to mean: "Why do people have a common response to music across cultures?" If that's what you meant, then I'd take talasiga's response to mean: "Because our response to music is somehow based on our common physiology--just like our response to tickling." This would have been my answer, though I'm sure I would have put it less poetically.

Of course, I may have misinterpreted either or both of you. Sometimes it happens...

No Darwin you certainly did NOT misinterpret me. I wished I could write straight like you.

Anyway where are you? I have not seen you about.

[Denny]

Darwin, after many years, was able to leave the house and reenter the outside world.

He stayed in touch for a little while.