The Last Iraq E-Mail (Warning: Long, but worth the read)

[jGilder]

Oh say, what is truth?

Research, study, and corroboration... the pursuit of truth isn't easy, but it's crucial in any democracy. As citizens -- we need to seek truth now more than ever because our corporate controlled media bombards us with deliberate distortions. I really wish I could just forget about it all and play tunes, but that would be highly irresponsible.

[glauber]

And speaking of the Iraqi soccer team, here's a sample of what life used to be like for their squad.

I'd be tempted to say 'tell us something we don't already know' if it weren't for the fact that you'd probably take me up on the offer.

And would probably fail, too.

[IRTradRU?]

[s1m0n]

Uh, the US army is doing a pretty good job of torturing folks, too. You're maintaining an entire system of torture camps in at least three nations, all with the apparrant blessing of the C in C and his attorney general.

What exactly was different about Hussein, again?

[IRTradRU?]

"folks" ?

:roll:

[jsluder]

If I didn't believe in the ultimate judgement of a just God in the eternal scheme of things I think I'd go mad.

Heh. This reminds me of one of my favorite "Babylon 5" quotes, by the character Marcus:

You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

[OnTheMoor]

Is that your friend's nephew IR?
I don't think that's what you meant, but the same e-mail is posted on the New Republic forum.

[Sunnywindo]

Oh say, what is truth?

Research, study, and corroboration... the pursuit of truth isn't easy, but it's crucial in any democracy. As citizens -- we need to seek truth now more than ever because our corporate controlled media bombards us with deliberate distortions. I really wish I could just forget about it all and play tunes, but that would be highly irresponsible.

Just for clarification, I'm not neccessarily talking about truth as in regards to whether there is a God or whether or not a religion is correct or what not. (Though a god part of how I personally consider truth sometimes involves a relgious aspect, I will not get into that aspect in this thread for the sake of the main point, though if someone wants to talk about it off thread PM I'd be willing to.)

The biggest concern in general I see is how readily people embrace something they hear (in the media, etc.) if it's in agreement or supports the belief/opinions that they already have.

Research, study and corroberation, indeed. That helps. Yes, truly... as citizens we need to seek truth... our very well being and continued survival as a nation could depend on it.

But when you can not be there in person to witness the truth of what happend, how do you really know? You have to put your trust in other sources.

Where EVERYONE agrees pretty much, or there is strong evidance that is plain to the world and there's little room or need to twist anything to fit a purpose, it's not too difficult. (Such as an earthquake or natural disaster happened here and there, or that we can all look back at history and in general say "yes, this war happend".

But it's when you get into the details that you can run into conflict. Too many are eager to just believe what they want to believe and embrace it as truth whether it is or not.

I agree that the media is distorted and biased. But there are those on both sides: one side says the media is biased to the right and the other biased to the left. So what is it? Sorry folks, it can't be both at the same time. So what is the truth there? How do you KNOW?

How do you KNOW that the people you have chosen to listen to are correct? When you have two different sides with their own studies, research, corroberation, witnesses, "independent" journalists... both sides claiming different things which conflict with each other (which happens A LOT) how can you KNOW? How do YOU decide?

I pose that as a serious question. I'd really like to know.

In general, there are two sides. (That stick out above others.) The left, the right... the liberal, the conservative....Most often in this country, connected to the Democrat and the Republican parties, though not always.

For example, I consider myself more conservative, but can't stand the Republican party. But because I am religious and in general, conservative, there are people who will automatically label me as a Republican and/or discount anything I say. Likewise, there are those on the right who will automatically discount anything from someone who is coming from a more liberalish viewpoint and discount everything they say without considering it at all ever.

It drives me crazy! You've got two sides continually blaming each other, fighting. Anything that goes wrong is automatically the fault of the other side. Anything that comes from the other side is automatically classified as a lie or some kind of propaganda. There is such a huge rift, getting wider and more hateful all the time it seems. Surely, there have always been such disagreements, but this is getting to be one of considerable magnatide.

My PERSONAL opinion is that BOTH sides are standing on rather rocky ground. Thus my analogy of standing in a building arguing while the building burns down all around.

There is such an increased focus on all the differences which divide us and push us apart that the things which we might have in common that would bring us together are ignored. In the clamor to be "correct", to gain power and fame and wealth or with folks in general... to just not be on the "losing/wrong" side, the truth is trampled into the dust.


What is the bit about a house divided can not stand?

Guess some folks are eager to see that happen in person?


I really do fear for the country I love.

If I didn't believe in the ultimate judgement of a just God in the eternal scheme of things I think I'd go mad.

Heh. This reminds me of one of my favorite "Babylon 5" quotes, by the character Marcus:

You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair. Then I thought, wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe.

*huge sigh*



Sara (*who in reality doesn't expect anyone to give a about what she says, but currently has no other outlet to express and/or vent her thoughts in*)

[missy]

actually Sara - I agree with you (and I'm thinking I'm kinda close to you in political thinking, too, with maybe a little Libertarian thrown in....)

I can't be a "part" of either party, they both disgust me at times.

And I agree with you about the media - again, I tend not to listen or watch news reports, but try to find information I can check the accuracy of on the internet.

Hmmmm - wanna form a third party???

Missy

[jGilder]

How do you KNOW that the people you have chosen to listen to are correct? When you have two different sides with their own studies, research, corroberation, witnesses, "independent" journalists... both sides claiming different things which conflict with each other (which happens A LOT) how can you KNOW? How do YOU decide?

It takes more than just choosing sides. Besides what I already mentioned, you need to examine your source's background and where their support comes from, look at their past opinions and observations and compare them to the historical events that were covered, and also their consistency. I've been studying these issues for over 30 years now and have had a good deal of time to make these and other comparisons. It's always an imperfect science, but we have no choice but to pursue it.

In the current case of the Iraq war, the people involved in the build-up to the war acted predictably. It was in keeping with events from their past, and the fact that no WMDs were found proved they were deceitful, and absolved anyone who warned against it.

If you read the Project for the New American Century, (PNAC) a secret document commissioned in 1991 by Bush Administration members, Rumsfeld, Chaney, Wolfowitz, Pearle and George’s brother, Jeb, you’ll see that it was all part of the plan. This document was determined by Project Censored to be the #1 censored story of 2003 shortly after it was discovered and exposed in 2002. The mainstream media was instructed to ignore it because had Americans known about it (and other things) -- much of what the Bush Administration has accomplished wouldn’t have been possible. This is just one example of how looking into a person’s history can provide a better understanding of what’s real and what’s just part of their agenda. It also reflects poorly on our so-called “free press.”

I pose that as a serious question. I'd really like to know.

In general, there are two sides. (That stick out above others.) The left, the right... the liberal, the conservative....Most often in this country, connected to the Democrat and the Republican parties, though not always.

For example, I consider myself more conservative, but can't stand the Republican party. But because I am religious and in general, conservative, there are people who will automatically label me as a Republican and/or discount anything I say. Likewise, there are those on the right who will automatically discount anything from someone who is coming from a more liberalish viewpoint and discount everything they say without considering it at all ever.

I think I understand what you're asking here, and I share your frustration. This labeling that you're talking about is the difference between seeking truth and just wanting to win arguments. It's as if some people just choose a side so they have an argument to defend. I didn't choose to be on either "side," I was motivated by what appeared to be the inhumane treatment of people by corporate interests -- I'm against corporate exploitation of people, resources and the environment. If that makes me a "leftist," then I guess that's what I am.

[IRTradRU?]

And then there's the Karl Marx theory...to which some on this forum seem to subscribe...

:roll:

[jGilder]

And then there's the Karl Marx theory...to which some on this forum seem to subscribe...

Really? Tell us about this "Karl Marx theory." Explain to us what it's all about so we can understand your assertion.

[Flyingcursor]

And speaking of the Iraqi soccer team, here's a sample of what life used to be like for their squad.

Soccer Players Describe Torture by Hussein's Son(May 6, 2003)

It makes you wonder why the US government played such a pivotal role in bringing Saddam's party to power in 1963, and then eventually assisting in bringing Saddam himself to power in 1979. And you have to also wonder why the US propped up and supported his regime even during his most heinous crimes against his people.

It doesn't make me wonder at all. In the late '70s the US-appointed Shah of Iran was deposed by a hostile force and Iran and Iraq were at war. Since the US didn't like Iran at that time it was only natural to support Iraq.

It's the same as in WWII where trumpets blew the horrors of the Nazi's but kept silent about the atrocities of Stalin because he was fighting the same enemy. Afterward, suddenly, the Soviets were the evil ones.

[Wormdiet]

And then there's the Karl Marx theory...to which some on this forum seem to subscribe...

:roll:

Then there are fascist, social-darwinian, medieval/regressionist, and assorted other theories too. Anybody wanna raise a hand for them?

[glauber]

It's true: USA has good intentions in Iraq





Happy April Fools Day!