Jon
Why are flutes so expensive? Who Cares.
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Jon C.
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- Tell us something.: I restore 19th century flutes, specializing in Rudall & Rose, and early American flutes. I occasionally make new flutes. Been at it for about 15 years.
- Location: San Diego
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Loren
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- Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
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Loren
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Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
Gary wrote:
"Why would people want to know "how it's made"? D'you know or care how a TV is made? A car? If you see a painting in an art gallery that moves you to purchase it, do you stand there wondering about what types of brush the artist used, how much they cost, or how they mixed their paint, the years spent 'training', the cost of the blank canvass or whether they made the frame themselves or bought it in?"
Actually, I find these things very interesting indeed: I don't make guitars, airplanes, custom cars or motorcycles, but I find it very interesting to learn how things are made, what it costs, and why things are made the way they are. Regarding art, my grandfather (Jack Bookbinder) was in fact both an artist (Lithographer and Painter) as well as an art educator (Director of Art Education for the Philadelphia public school system, author, and lecturer at numerous colleges), so for me it is entirely normal to look at, and appreciate, art from both the practial, and asthetic perspectives. In fact, I find your point of view rather unnatural as would most artists, as well as those who deeply appreciate art: Any real enthusiast would be able to tell you a bit about how and why Van Gogh's brush technique affects how his paintings appear. And so, with all the talk about flutes here, not to mention all the buying and selling, I thought perhaps such "Enthusiasts" would be interested to know more about flutes (and if we had followed the path just a little further, certain things would start to become clear, like why a flute that costs $1800. is typcially better made, and more responsive than one that costs half as much), but I see I was more or less incorrect, many folks here prefer to be the average type of consumer who can't tell a Ferrari from a Ford, and that's fine by me.
"I think this thread would've been much more interesting (to me) if you'd simply told us the process, from blank to finished instrument,"
That info is more or less already out there, on various makers websites.
"And maybe the grand total for the equipment needed to 'start up' in production. And left out the reference to flutes being "expensive" altogether, because it makes you (as a maker) sound as if you're trying to justify something to someone, somewhere."
Yes, I can see how some people might take it that way, although that wasn't my intention.
But spitting the dummy out the pram because we don't have a clue how many tools are needed (or even what their names are) and don't want to show our ignorance (blissful or otherwise) by playing a daft guessing game we can't possibly hope to 'get right' doesn't achieve much. Except you lose the dummy and we're left shrugging our shoulders and thinking "who cares, as long as it sounds good and *someone's* making them and offering them for sale."
Well, I suspect that's the end result anyway, based on most of the responses so far, so why waste my time?
Loren
"Why would people want to know "how it's made"? D'you know or care how a TV is made? A car? If you see a painting in an art gallery that moves you to purchase it, do you stand there wondering about what types of brush the artist used, how much they cost, or how they mixed their paint, the years spent 'training', the cost of the blank canvass or whether they made the frame themselves or bought it in?"
Actually, I find these things very interesting indeed: I don't make guitars, airplanes, custom cars or motorcycles, but I find it very interesting to learn how things are made, what it costs, and why things are made the way they are. Regarding art, my grandfather (Jack Bookbinder) was in fact both an artist (Lithographer and Painter) as well as an art educator (Director of Art Education for the Philadelphia public school system, author, and lecturer at numerous colleges), so for me it is entirely normal to look at, and appreciate, art from both the practial, and asthetic perspectives. In fact, I find your point of view rather unnatural as would most artists, as well as those who deeply appreciate art: Any real enthusiast would be able to tell you a bit about how and why Van Gogh's brush technique affects how his paintings appear. And so, with all the talk about flutes here, not to mention all the buying and selling, I thought perhaps such "Enthusiasts" would be interested to know more about flutes (and if we had followed the path just a little further, certain things would start to become clear, like why a flute that costs $1800. is typcially better made, and more responsive than one that costs half as much), but I see I was more or less incorrect, many folks here prefer to be the average type of consumer who can't tell a Ferrari from a Ford, and that's fine by me.
"I think this thread would've been much more interesting (to me) if you'd simply told us the process, from blank to finished instrument,"
That info is more or less already out there, on various makers websites.
"And maybe the grand total for the equipment needed to 'start up' in production. And left out the reference to flutes being "expensive" altogether, because it makes you (as a maker) sound as if you're trying to justify something to someone, somewhere."
Yes, I can see how some people might take it that way, although that wasn't my intention.
But spitting the dummy out the pram because we don't have a clue how many tools are needed (or even what their names are) and don't want to show our ignorance (blissful or otherwise) by playing a daft guessing game we can't possibly hope to 'get right' doesn't achieve much. Except you lose the dummy and we're left shrugging our shoulders and thinking "who cares, as long as it sounds good and *someone's* making them and offering them for sale."
Well, I suspect that's the end result anyway, based on most of the responses so far, so why waste my time?
Loren
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Loren
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- Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
Peggy wrote:
"Umm, no, you're misconstruing us.
Ignorance is not preferred . . . but we're ignorant. We can't answer your question about the tools because we don't know what tools are required."
Yes, I realize this: Some folks here know little or nothing of the tools required (which is why I brought it up) and others have more knowledge. Guessing games can be fun: If I posted a trivia question asking folks to guess how they get the lead in pencils (no, not Viagra ) would I have gotten the same response? Hey, I just thought people might find it fun and throw out guesses (which some did.)
"We've been joking because we recognize that we have no idea what is required. We've been joking to fill up the time until you decide to come back and tell us."
I don't think you speak for everyone........
Whatever, lesson learned on my part.
To answer the question: It takes at least 79 tools to make a one key 5 piece flute in our shop. At this point though, there's no way I'm going to bother taking the time to list them all out and give details, like I said, I'm sorry I started this thread to begin with. Time to move on.
Loren
"Umm, no, you're misconstruing us.
Ignorance is not preferred . . . but we're ignorant. We can't answer your question about the tools because we don't know what tools are required."
Yes, I realize this: Some folks here know little or nothing of the tools required (which is why I brought it up) and others have more knowledge. Guessing games can be fun: If I posted a trivia question asking folks to guess how they get the lead in pencils (no, not Viagra
) would I have gotten the same response? Hey, I just thought people might find it fun and throw out guesses (which some did.)"We've been joking because we recognize that we have no idea what is required. We've been joking to fill up the time until you decide to come back and tell us."
I don't think you speak for everyone........
Whatever, lesson learned on my part.
To answer the question: It takes at least 79 tools to make a one key 5 piece flute in our shop. At this point though, there's no way I'm going to bother taking the time to list them all out and give details, like I said, I'm sorry I started this thread to begin with. Time to move on.
Loren
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Loren
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- Tell us something.: You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
Hop on the bus, Gus
You don't need to discuss much
Just drop off the key, Lee
And get yourself free - Location: Loren has left the building.
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Whistlin'Dixie
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Nanohedron
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Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps. - Location: Lefse country
Loren wrote: I don't think you speak for everyone........
Generally speaking, I operate under the assumption that I do. :roll:
You know, you can take your toys and play by yourself, but we'll still be here when you want to come back, and we'll welcome you.
We like you and enjoy your presence here, Loren.
Speaking for myself, that is.
I'm sorry if I made light of the requirements of flute-making. I didn't realize it would offend you. Mea culpa.
Cotelette d'Agneau
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Terry McGee
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See, you've all gone and grumped Loren out, and now you'll never find out whether flutes are overpriced or not!
If flutes are overpriced, we should easily be able to identify one or more makers sitting on a personal fortune, rather in the manner of Bill Gates. (hmmm, if our flutes gave as much trouble as his software ...)
Perhaps some of you have some goss you can share on the outrageous spending habits of the Olwells, the string of fantastic palaces inhabited by the Burns, the extravagent lifestyle of the Hamiltons and of the legendary Copley Millions.
(We do know of at least several 19th century makers, Monzani and Potter if I remember correctly among them, that left fine fortunes. So it must be theoretically possible! Then again some like Nicholson died in poverty.)
Somebody once said "it's more a lifestyle than a living", and I suspect this applies to most of us. We certainly get by, but I imagine most of us earn considerably less per annum than the average of our customers.
There was an old bolshie guitarmaker in Brisbane who had an interesting approach to charging. He kept a record of how long it took to make the instrument and charged customers at the rate their jobs paid them. His argument was that he must be worth at least as much as they were, or they wouldn't be coming to him.
Still, it's good to know that we're not at the bottom of the economic pecking order. That's reserved for the professional musician!
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side." -Hunter S. Thompson
Terry
If flutes are overpriced, we should easily be able to identify one or more makers sitting on a personal fortune, rather in the manner of Bill Gates. (hmmm, if our flutes gave as much trouble as his software ...)
Perhaps some of you have some goss you can share on the outrageous spending habits of the Olwells, the string of fantastic palaces inhabited by the Burns, the extravagent lifestyle of the Hamiltons and of the legendary Copley Millions.
(We do know of at least several 19th century makers, Monzani and Potter if I remember correctly among them, that left fine fortunes. So it must be theoretically possible! Then again some like Nicholson died in poverty.)
Somebody once said "it's more a lifestyle than a living", and I suspect this applies to most of us. We certainly get by, but I imagine most of us earn considerably less per annum than the average of our customers.
There was an old bolshie guitarmaker in Brisbane who had an interesting approach to charging. He kept a record of how long it took to make the instrument and charged customers at the rate their jobs paid them. His argument was that he must be worth at least as much as they were, or they wouldn't be coming to him.
Still, it's good to know that we're not at the bottom of the economic pecking order. That's reserved for the professional musician!
"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side." -Hunter S. Thompson
Terry
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peeplj
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Terry, it's good to see you chiming in on this thread! I was wondering where you were...
I don't think flutes are overprices (well, not most, anyway). I do think they are expensive...I can't think of something that cost a couple of grand as not being expensive.
Expensive is not necessarily overpriced, though.
--James
I don't think flutes are overprices (well, not most, anyway). I do think they are expensive...I can't think of something that cost a couple of grand as not being expensive.
Expensive is not necessarily overpriced, though.
--James
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treeshark
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Ha you forgot the McGee Empire, I was there one day delivering a lorry load of Foi Gras, Caviar and Truffles, so I took a snap of the entrance hall.Terry McGee wrote:Perhaps some of you have some goss you can share on the outrageous spending habits of the Olwells, the string of fantastic palaces inhabited by the Burns, the extravagent lifestyle of the Hamiltons and of the legendary Copley Millions. Terry
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Terry McGee
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Yes, that's the tradesperson's entrance....
There's a nice story from London about the time our old flutes were being made. Holtzapffel was making fancy ornamental turning lathes, and teaching "gentlemen amateurs" how to use them. He turned up one day at a great mansion to give a lesson and was instructed by the doorman to enquire at the tradesman's entrance.
Somewhat offended, he responded: "Please inform your Master that his Master is here".
Terry
There's a nice story from London about the time our old flutes were being made. Holtzapffel was making fancy ornamental turning lathes, and teaching "gentlemen amateurs" how to use them. He turned up one day at a great mansion to give a lesson and was instructed by the doorman to enquire at the tradesman's entrance.
Somewhat offended, he responded: "Please inform your Master that his Master is here".
Terry
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chas
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Geez, I didn't think I was being overly conservative with my estimate of 60 -- guess it must be that key.Loren wrote:To answer the question: It takes at least 79 tools to make a one key 5 piece flute in our shop. At this point though, there's no way I'm going to bother taking the time to list them all out and give details, like I said, I'm sorry I started this thread to begin with. Time to move on.
Kind of reminds me of Luigi Vercotti talking about Dinsdale Piranha. "First he splits me noxtrils, then he pulls me liver out, and I say, "But, Dinsy what'd I do?' Then he lost his temper."Terry McGee wrote:"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic
hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs.
There's also a negative side." -Hunter S. Thompson
Terry, I greatly enjoyed your site about the steps involved in making flutes. I'll be ringing you up in 20 years or so when I begin making flutes in my "retirement."
Charlie
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.
Whorfin Woods
"Our work puts heavy metal where it belongs -- as a music genre and not a pollutant in drinking water." -- Prof Ali Miserez.