Not a reflection on society...

[Wombat]

I've heard of people who tortured birds and animals. I wonder if they got any useful information.

I'll assume you are joking.


I was responding to someone's comment that physical punishment was torture. It is not.

I don't care what else you define torture as or as not.

End of story.

I'm joking about extracting information. I wish I were joking about the torture, but I'm not. Just my way of pointing out that we would describe dismembering a bird as torture round these parts. One of my first childhood shocks about human nature was discovering that someone who had been my friend got his kicks that way.

[Flyingcursor]

I've heard of people who tortured birds and animals. I wonder if they got any useful information.

I'll assume you are joking.


I was responding to someone's comment that physical punishment was torture. It is not.

I don't care what else you define torture as or as not.

End of story.

Just my way of pointing out that we would describe dismembering a bird as torture round these parts. .

I would define it that way also.
I made a mistake in my phraseology earlier causing a bit of misunderstanding as to my point.

To avoid any further problems I'll just go to another thread.

[Nanohedron]

Of course, none of this excuses or explains away the behaviour of the culprits. It does suggest that we might be battling against the odds to provide a safer environment free of acts like this. Maybe the best question to ask when looking to prevention is not, 'how could they do it?' but rather 'how have we succeeded in preventing this from happening more often?'

All one can do is try. A good (let's presume we all have a general consensus on what that means) upbringing is never guarantee, but the alternative poses the greater risk. What are the rewards to the outlaw, though, in making such efforts? That's how it needs to be tackled, I think, as that's how it's going to be assesed: by rewards. Those who remain in a condition of, say, continual partying, thievery, and opportunism --grasping self interest, in other words-- will pass these values on to the young who live with them. The abstract rewards of the future in trying to do the right thing with children are not part of the picture in such a world.

I have no insights into this angle other than knowing it for what it is. I don't think there is any fundamental remedy other than the desire and will to make changes for the sake of others, and that don't fill yer pipe.

[peeplj]

The concept of prevention is valuable but I think moreso from the perspective of the individual than of the society as a whole.

As an individual, always be careful and be aware of your surroundings. This can go a long way towards keeping you as safe as you can be.

As a society for as long as there has been written history there has been violent crime. Society has been trying to come up with ways to prevent these crimes ever since society has existed as a concept, but we still have violent crime--maybe even more than ever before, some say so at least.

My conclusion from this is that while I agree that society doing all it can to prevent violent crime is a good thing, I am not sure it will be an effective thing.

That's why I think taking steps to protect society from violent criminals is our only realistic option, and that means removing them from society where they can't hurt other folks. That doesn't necessary mean the death penalty, but is does mean locking them up.

--James

[I.D.10-t]

I must be the odd one out here. I don't like the death penalty because it gave too much control to the state. I see how the state runs prisons so that some incarcerated people come out worse than they went in and how prisons, while not torturing the people themselves, allow prisoners to abuse each other to the point of encouraging gang fights within the prison walls. Giving the state power to execute seems like too much power for ME to be comfortable.

I have seen little evidence that deterrence has little effect on crime. At one point hanging was the punishment for pickpockets. When the crowds gathered pickpockets would work the crowd. This is just an example, there are good examples both for and against the deterrence model, but in my opinion, this example seems closest to the truth. It seems to me that punishment is mostly for the victim to feel better.

Do some people make it out of bad environments? Yes, however, just like not every college dropout becomes a Bill Gates, not everyone can rise above the their surroundings. By punishing and stigmatizing people often you cut off their ability to reenter society and make it even harder to be productive. This places them in an environment that affords few “Good” examples and forces them to hang out with “Evil” people. So I believe that society has a significant role (to include prevention, punishment and rehabilitation) in criminal activities. This is not to say that this is all or nothing. Society, the criminal, and the victim all have a role in a crime are responsible to some extent and in varying amounts depending on the circumstances. (one of my more controversial beliefs because of fear of blaming the victim)

It seems to me that the solution these days are to throw the bums in jail. The US has led the way in filling prisons and we cannot build them fast enough to hold all convicts. Yet, I don’t feel any safer. People get their sentence reduced so that they can make room for the next convict and are out without any reason (often more reason) to keep out of trouble. I am left feeling like I am surrounded by dangerous people with no reason to change and a government that is becoming more repressive and punitive. There are other ways of protecting society from criminals. Removal of sex organs for any sex offenders, cutting off the hands of thieves, radio-tracking devices, lobotomies, etc. all could protect society. I do not think that is the kind of society I would want to live in. So I would say that I stand more in the prevention/treatment category when it comes to protecting society from criminals with minimal governmental punitive action.

Don’t get me wrong. I am not your standard bleeding heart liberal. I just do not think that our modern conservative form of judicial system is working. Just like the 1960’s liberal form didn’t work. Until we get people in a community to act like a community, I doubt that any policing or justice style will work.

My opinions, read them, try to see them from my perspective, then rip them to shreds.

In the good old days we just beat ‘em until they confessed and hung ‘em.

[Sunnywindo]

Deep and wide, cold and genuine evil does exist, that much I know.

I think it does reflect on society to an extent. Not that a general level of such things haven't been with society forever. But when it spikes, when it goes beyond the average, that is the point where it starts to reflect on the state of the society.

That when a society (as a whole) moves away from basic anchors of decency and morality; when things like honesty, charity, integrity are no longer held high as virtues worth striving for, when right and wrong become relative, when shackles of self-restraint and self disipline are removed, when "if it feels good do it"/"nothing is my fault, XYZ made me" become common attutiudes.... When society chooses these sorts of things, you get a increased spike in crime and deeds that are so far out there that they can only be described as evil.

I don't know what to do about it exactly. People have choice. You can't force everyone to "be good" and "raise their kids right" (added the problematic arguement of what good and right will be by the forced standard) or you'd wind up with a first rate communistic dictatorship type of government.

People have to choose good for themselves. Perhaps when people have had enough sorrow they will choose it again.

In the meantime, while I have mixed feelings on the death penalty, life in prison (not just ten or fifteen years) to protect society from those who have committed truly evil crimes is not unreasonable.

And yes, if my child did something horrific like that, I'd call the police myself. It would hurt something awful, but if he made that choice then I'd see that he faced the consequence, even if it meant possible death.

Of course, I teach my children right and wrong, basic decency and the concept of conseqences. Unless they suffer brain damage or something, I expect them to know better. I understood that murder and stealing and such were wrong because my parents sat me down and taught me... and it doesn't take some "magic" thing like reaching the age of eighteen to be able to comprehend that murder is very wrong.

Sadly, some people don't teach their children that sort of thing. However, it seems to me that unless someone is drunk or mentally handcapped/brain damaged that they would realize that something on the level of hacking another person to death while the person was begging and pleading for their life was a bad thing.

(Murder is not on the same level as stealing or being dishonest... it's so huge and far reaching, it's permanent and no amount of "sorry" can bring the dead person back.)


Sara (who realizes it's much more complicated and messy than what she's posted here)




Side thought: If you take away the concept of "God"/ that even if you get away with it in this life that there are unpleasent, eternal consequences to be had....

Then you take away the likelyhood of punishment/soften the sentence so that all you have to do is plead insanity/bad childhood (even if you knew full well what you were doing) or be under 18 and more and more judges start handing out sentences like 8 months or 5 years (or "life sentence" of fifteen years) for blantent murder....

Then what is left to motivate those who need to have reason to be compelled to do the right thing?

(Perhaps that is where the spike in such crimes comes in, those who might not have, now see no reason enough not to if the mood strikes them.)

[peeplj]

People have to choose good for themselves. Perhaps when people have had enough sorrow they will choose it again.

Well, in looking at history, I'm not sure they ever chose it the first time.

History is written in blood; ours in not the first age that bleeds.

In fact I can't help but wonder if this myth that it used to be so much better and it has only recently gotten so bad is counterproductive: it implies that if we could return to the time when it was better (which varies widely depending on who you ask and usually what religion they are), then all the problems and their causes would just magically go away.

Instead of pining away for some lost innocent age, we really need to look at what we can do to improve the age in which we in fact live. If we can get every generation to seriously pledge to do just that, then gradually, over time, there will be a real improvement.

I think one thing we have to do in order to improve our age is to find a way to deal with violent crime and to remove from those who are known to be violent criminals the capacity to do further harm.

--James

[dubhlinn]

A very interesting thread....but for all the wrong reasons.

It's very well sitting here in our comfortable homes and debating the problems of Society as we define it but the bottom line here is, as Gary has pointed out with his link, a terrible crime has been commited against an innocent human being.
The perpetrators of this crime have no place in our society and should be removed from that Society immediately.
A ten/twelve year stretch in prison will then bring about a situation where three evil people are back out on the streets again with a major grudge against the society that put them there in the first place.....
I do not care to live in a society where my child, because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, could be the target for their frustration and bitterness.

Given the opportunity, I would shoot them myself.

Quick, clean, and final.


Slan,
D.

[Whistlin'Dixie]

Given the opportunity, I would shoot them myself.

Quick, clean, and final.


Slan,
D.

And a much kinder end to it all than the victim had.

I was hoping someone besides myself felt that way....

M

[mukade]

Given the opportunity, I would shoot them myself.

Quick, clean, and final.


Slan,
D.

And a much kinder end to it all than the victim had.

I was hoping someone besides myself felt that way....

M

You guys should join the IRA. They feel exactly the same way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4330445.stm

Mukade

[dubhlinn]

Mukade,
The link you posted refers to a very nasty bit of animosity amongst people who once were friends but now are bitter enemies.

That those involved in his death may, or not be, members of the Irish Republican Army, is not something that needs dwelling on.The fact that those involved have abused their position in the Army to further a personel goal has not gone unnoticed and will be,as it should be,dealt with accordingly in the way that these things have always been dealt with by those who do not abuse the reasons why they joined this Army in the first place.

How's the crack in Japan these days?


Slan,
D.

[Jack]

Cran - I understand your feelings.....

And I hate this to sound condenscending, but I've lived longer than you have.

I don't think my age has anything to do with the price of tea in China. I dislike my age being brought into every argument when people think I'm wrong. I am not even the youngest person on this forum. Stop it. Thank you.

I've come to realize that unfortunately, there really ARE people in this world that are evil.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree here. But even evil people do not deserve to be beaten or killed.

[peeplj]

Cran - I understand your feelings.....

And I hate this to sound condenscending, but I've lived longer than you have.

I don't think my age has anything to do with the price of tea in China. I dislike my age being brought into every argument when people think I'm wrong. I am not even the youngest person on this forum. Stop it. Thank you.

I have to speak up for Cran, here. I've known too many immature people of all ages to think that physical age is the precursor of wisdom. Reference to age is an example of "ad hominem," which refers to the practice of trying to weaken someone's argument by directing criticism at the person who made it rather than at the argument itself.

I've come to realize that unfortunately, there really ARE people in this world that are evil.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree here. But even evil people do not deserve to be beaten or killed.

Agreed. But that's not what's going to happen to these kids; rather, they are going to be locked away from society for a long time; I would personally prefer they never be released into society. This is more to protect society than to attempt to punish.

In being locked away in prison, these kids are not being subjected to the kind of abuse which they themselves subjected their victim to.

Put another way, if we don't lock these kids away, it is the innocents of society who are being punished, because it seems likely to me that these kids, given opportunity and even the smallest of perceived reasons, would likely kill again.

--James

[TooTs]

I would say that those who call for the death penalty should be prepared to carry out the punishment. I don't accept people calling for it if they aren't prepared to kill the people themselves.

Saying that, i believe that we should have the death penalty for premeditated murder, where there is undisputable evidence.

[Jack]

I am actually surprised that so many British people on this forum are pro-death penalty.

I wouldn't have figured.