What Defines Us? Thoughts or Actions?

[Jeff Stallard]

After lenghty discussions about this with my girlfriend, I decided to see what the rest of the world thought. It all started with the following quote:

What we think or what we believe is, in the end, of little consequence. The only thing of consequence is what we do.

Pro-thought argument: If a man is attracted to women, but has never had sexual contact with them, he is defined as a heterosexual.

Pro-action argument: If a man desires to beat his wife, but never does, then he is not defined as a wife-beater.

I lean to the pro-action side, because definitions are social constructs, meaning in a solitary world it would be impossible to define yourself. Labels (adjectives) only have meaning when you have others to compare yourself to. So if definitions are social, and actions are the only thing society cares about, then it seems to me that actions define us.

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[avanutria]

Pro-thought argument: If a man is attracted to women, but has never had sexual contact with them, he is defined as a heterosexual.

This argument feels flawed to me, but I'm feeling too under-the-weather to figure out why. Someone smarter than me will get to it, I'm sure.

[I.D.10-t]

Can thinking be considered an action?

[Flyingcursor]

It's like the historical question, do great events make great people or do great people make great events.

I suppose actions are how others define you but what you think determines how you define yourself.

Hope you feel better Beth.

[Jeff Stallard]

I tend to agree that it's flawed, but that seems to be the major pro-thought argument I get from people, so I felt it my duty to offer it.

If the pro-thought argument is wrong, and sexual contact is required to establish sexual orientation, then that means humans are asexual until their first sexual contact (should we define sexual contact?).

I don't mean for this to degenerate into a gay/straight argument. it's just that the major pro-thought argument deals with sexuality.

[suejnnhe]

I selected a mix of both. Thoughts lead to actions. Now I will contradict myself and say that in some situations, actions lead to changing our thoughts. If one refuses to continue act on thoughts/impulses that one wishes to overcome, eventually the thoughts themselves can be overcome.

I also believe that in the end we are defined by our actions. After all, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions" is as valid today as when it was coined.

[Lorenzo]

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." Wasn't it Christ who said something like that too? Not sure if the same is true with women.

[I.D.10-t]

If the pro-thought argument is wrong, and sexual contact is required to establish sexual orientation, then that means humans are asexual until their first sexual contact (should we define sexual contact?).

I would counter that the first sexual contact is all about what the person thinks is sex. Brushing up against some one, hugging, kissing, etc. therefore, the action may be unobservable because it is the thoughts that matter.

[Martin Milner]

I think we need to define define.

I don't often feel the need to define myself, I am, as Popeye says, what I am.

It's other people who need to put me into a category: gay, straight, wife-beater, archeologist, pedant, musician.

So I put other, because I think it's other people who define us.

[Caj]

"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." Wasn't it Christ who said something like that too? Not sure if the same is true with women.

Yes, this is Christ's position on the matter. At least in terms of whether or not we are sinful.

I think you take this poll again in a couple years. We just got past a heated election, where every candidate was vocally in favor of everything good, and every opponent was obviously against everything good. In that kind of verbal soup, we are inclined to judge people by their actions.

Caj

[Jeff Stallard]

I don't often feel the need to define myself, I am, as Popeye says, what I am. It's other people who need to put me into a category: gay, straight, wife-beater, archeologist, pedant, musician.

Well that's my whole point, that WE don't define ourselves at all, we merely choose to agree with or disagree with other people's definitions of us. Since other people can't see your thoughts, the only thing they have with which to define you is your actions.

[Jeff Stallard]

I submit this quote to further the debate. This one really got me thinking.

"So we acquire a sense of self worth either by realizing our talents, or by keeping busy or by identifying ourselves with something apart from us - be it a cause, a leader, a group, possessions or whatnot. The path to self realization is the most difficult."

"Similarly, we have more faith in what we imitate than in what we
originate. We cannot derive an absolute certitude from anything which has its roots in us. The most poignant sense of insecurity comes from standing alone and we are not alone when we imitate. It is thus with most of us; we are what other people say we are. We know ourselves chiefly by hearsay."

[TelegramSam]

Action begins in thought. Ergo, both.

[Jeff Stallard]

Action begins in thought. Ergo, both.

If I move to kick you in the crotch, you're going to avoid the strike without thinking about it. I'd say that's pretty strong evidence that not all action begins in thought.

[Jeff Stallard]

If thoughts define us, then does our identiy change while we dream? Let's say I dream I'm a rabbit. If my thoughts determine my identity, then for the duration of that dream, I *AM* a rabbit.