Cocobolo vs. Polymer (an update on the M&E)

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 4:30 pm

Okay fellows. I though I'd do an update on my 5 lefty keyed M&E Rudall and Rose. Some of you might remember that I played a M&E R&R polymer, unkeyed for almost 2 years, then I sent it back to Michael to get it keyed with home made lefty keys. Acctually I ended up with a brand new flute as he had one ready with 5 keys that the original purchaser couldn't pay for, so I just sent mine back. I also had another great idea, to get a new headjoint for the flute at the same time, a headjoint in wood to see if there is really a difference. I decided to ask Michael to do it partially unlined aswell, Michael agreed to do it, so I am now in the possesion of the only partially lined M&E headjoint in the world, if he hasn't done any more of them after he made mine. He should cause mine is great, but we'll come to that later. With two headjoints and the body in a hardcase the flute arived here.

Here are two pics (smaller than the ones in the original thread which I haven't had the time to dig up yet, it's several pages back.)

[img]http://files.helgon.net/Gallery/{3FB/{3 ... 66285}.jpg[/img]

[img]http://files.helgon.net/Gallery/{EA1/{E ... B5757}.jpg[/img]

Not the best pics but they should give you an idea of how the flute looks. It's not very elegant, but it's certainly beautiful by my standards.

I have also recorded two soundclips of the flute with both heads. They are quite lousy, warning for some squeeks. I know the rythm isn't spot on here, otherwise I'd be happy to recieve some feedback. However, the main reason for these clips is to display the difference between the two heads and not to display my playing.

First out is George White's Favourite (influenced by the playing of Kevin Crawford), you'll hear the cocobolo head first and then the polymer head:
http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssni ... enrikJ.mp3

Next up is Rolling in the Rye Grass. What I've done here is that I played two times trough on each head, the first time at moderate volume, maybe a bit on the softer side and the second on I try to push the flute as loud as it can go (warning for terrible squeeks here, I didn't realise this until now but this was probably a bit louder than my mic could handel so close up). Same order, first cocobolo, then polymer.
http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssni ... ansson.mp3

As you can hear, there is a noteable difference in sound between the two, also the Cocobolo head can take more air and play louder. Wether this difference is due to slightly different embouchure cuts, unlined vs. lined or cocobolo vs. polymer is difficult to know. I'd say a little bit of each.

peeplj · Post by **peeplj** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 5:07 pm

Both heads sound pretty good to me...I like the tone you are getting, very clean.

There is some difference in the sound, the wood head seems brighter to my ears.

I sympathize with your technical difficulties on recording this comparison. Comparisons involving volume are a real pain...only someone who has actually gone through the process and done one will understand.

Thanks for posting this. Great sounding flute, and I enjoyed your playing.

Please post more.

--James

fiddlecrazy · Post by **fiddlecrazy** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:06 pm

Yeah, the wood does sound brighter. Nice playing.

eilam · Post by **eilam** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:07 pm

Hanke, good stuff ! I like the Cocobolo head better, but they both sound good.

more !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

eilam.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:43 pm

Thanks for the inputs guys. Keep em coming, I could use some feedback on my playing aswell, altough that wasn't the reason why I recorded this.

Unseen122 · Post by **Unseen122** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:54 pm

I agree the Coco head is brighter I like the sound of it more.

Jon C. · Post by **Jon C.** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:18 pm

Hi Henke,
Sound clips sound great.
Are the head joints the same? Do you have a caliper that you can measure the depth of the chimney on the embouchure?
Would it be possible to see a picture of both Head joints together, maybe a close-up on the embouchure holes.
If the embouchure is different it would give a different tone.
Jon

MurphyStout · Post by **MurphyStout** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:00 pm

Nice tone on those flutes Henke. As for critiques/criticisms I have three suggestions.

Phrasing- Work on getting the solid phrasing down and think about your breathing spots on the tunes. If you managed to fix your breathing you'd fix most of your rthyhm problems. That's where I hear your going amiss on your recordings.

Ornamentation- I'd get the tune down with proper phrasing before you go hog wild on the ornamentation. It sounds as though you're trying to play crans? in some of those places and it seems as though your almost changing the structure of the tune forcing them in there. A good exercise is to try to play these tunes without ornamentation (if possible) so you become more comfortable with the tunes melody which will help you figure our where it is appropriate to put ornamentation and where it is not.

Listening... listen to the old players who have these two things down pat and it will help you.

Anyways, enough of that. Nice playing and good luck.

Jack

fantomas · Post by **fantomas** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:23 am

poses some interesting quesitons,

like? why would the wood sound brighter/more volume capacity?
is the bore in the head different?
or is there something to do with the porosity of the material and sound being affected?
Does polymer have the same tensile strength than wood?
I'm thinking of getting a polymer myself to get started on embouchure work, i'm a poor student and i will be hard pressed to find a good wooden flute i can take propper care of for any time soon.
now there are some makers i have read about: do you know wich one makes better polymer versions?

TOny Dixon, M. Cronnolly, or Desi Seery?

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:46 am

Jon, I don't have a caliper here to measure the chimney depth. I could try and get a picture but it will probably take a few days minimum. I'll see what I can do. The embouchure cut is slightly different.

And Jack, thanks for the input, I'll take that into consideration.

Fantomas. There are three big differences between the headjoints. First the material, which I do think accounts for a bit of a difference in tone. Second is the embouchure cut which is slightly different, the Cocobolo head has a little wider and straighter blowing edge where the polymer is more round, again stand by for pics. Third is the fact that the polymer head is fully lined with metal and the metal lining in the Cocobolo head ends several inches away from the embouchure hole. It's difficult to know what makes the most difference here. My guess would be that the diffierent embouchure cuts accounts for the difference in volume, the material would probably only affect the tone character and not the volume in this case. I think the bore size would be almost exactly the same in both heads.
I think you'd do a great choice in getting a polymer flute. I'd warmly recomend the M&E. M&E's and Seery's are more respected around here than Dixon's. I think you'd be best of getting an M&E for your first flute, it's a remarkable instrument which will serve you well forever and it's probably a lot easier to learn on than the Seery.

eilam · Post by **eilam** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:15 am

Jon makes nice flutes, and the flute would be custom to your needs and wants.

Wormdiet · Post by **Wormdiet** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:31 am

fantomas wrote:poses some interesting quesitons,

I'm thinking of getting a polymer myself to get started on embouchure work, i'm a poor student and i will be hard pressed to find a good wooden flute i can take propper care of for any time soon.
now there are some makers i have read about: do you know wich one makes better polymer versions?

TOny Dixon, M. Cronnolly, or Desi Seery?

Just chiming in on the recommendations end of things.

I have the same model flute Henke does, but without keys. I took it to a session on Sunday that had 4 other flute players in attendance (it was apparently a freakishly large turnout.) The M&E got sincere compliments from owners of an Olwell blackwood, a Murray, and an Abell Boehm flute on its tone and volume.

In terms of "appropriateness" for a beginner, you can't go wrong with the M&E unless you decide not to be a fluter. Even for a totally rank newb like myself, it's playable far into the second octave. I've had it all of 8 days, and while I am not yet consistent with it, I can play some tunes fairly decently.

The only downside to a polymer that I can see is that it's *heavy*. No, it isn't a top-of-the-line waiting list type of flute, but will you honestly be able to appreciate the difference at this stage?

I've heard very good things about the Seery as well. For a beginner, the conventional wisdom holds that the Seery has a steeper learning curve than an M&e, but will be very rewarding of your patience.

The CW on the Dixon holds that you should definitely go with the 3-piece tunable model.

MarcusR · Post by **MarcusR** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:07 am

Nice playing Henke!

As we discussed in the passed, the flutes you compare are acoustically quite different and the variation in sound quality (characteristics) is more likley to be related these differences than to the two different materials.

From M&E website wrote:And since our polymer flutes have generally the same dimensions and finish as traditional Irish wood flutes, the sounds are quite similar. Not exactly the same, mind you, since no two flutes have exactly the same dimensions, but the difference in sound is not primarily because of the difference in material. The difference in sound comes primarily from the art and skill of the flute maker.

But I agree on one point, Michael makes some really nice flutes

/MarcusR

michael_coleman · Post by **michael_coleman** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:23 pm

The cocobolo definately sounds reedier.

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:49 pm

MarcusR wrote:Nice playing Henke!

As we discussed in the passed, the flutes you compare are acoustically quite different and the variation in sound quality (characteristics) is more likley to be related these differences than to the two different materials.

Thanks Marcus.
and yes, I rember us discussing that, maybe you also remeber that I didn't agree with you

Sure, I think the design of the flute accounts for a larger difference than what the material does, but I still believe that material makes a difference.