Accompanying uilleann pipes

[Kevin Popejoy]

But lionizing their playing as being somehow irreproachable goes beyond naïve into the realm of delusional.

Philistine...

[Jim McGuire]

But lionizing their playing as being somehow irreproachable goes beyond naïve into the realm of delusional.

Hardly the case. Those individuals did put their music out there and, as such, their music and contribution is beyond reproach. Are there current examples of great piping and great music? Sure.

Many pipers still mine the old players for many reasons - tunes, setting, technique. The whole scene, though, goes beyond the technique, the tuning.

People seem to have pipes in better maintenance as it is easier to find someone to do the work. Tuning sensibilities seem to please the modern ear; no one is able to recreate the sounds of an Egan chanter, though, bringing forward its best characteristics with an eye on the tuner, too.

[PJ]

no one is able to recreate the sounds of an Egan chanter, though, bringing forward its best characteristics with an eye on the tuner, too.

It's worth noting that no one can reproduce the sound of Stradavarius' instruments either. Makes you wounder what the future holds for Egan pipes. Will they gain the same mythic reputation?

[djm]

They already have! There's maybe five people in the world who would recognize the sound of an Egan flat set. For everyone else, they would have to be told they were listening to an Egan set, and how many actual Egan sets are out there being played in the public domain? - one? - two?

PJ, you may be confusing listening to Ennis, Clancy et al as entertainment versus listening to learn from them. I, too, have questioned the out of tune sets, the bad quality of the recordings, etc. but I don't know of any of the modern players you are so enraptured with who isn't drawing directly from Ennis or Clancy. Liam O'Flynn's playing is almost note for note from Clancy's version on many tunes. It wasn't just their playing, but the way they played the tunes, the settings they chose, the ornaments they chose, that pipers keep going back for. This is certainly not the sort of stuff the general listening public would be interested in, but for pipers it is a sort of Holy Grail.

djm

[eric]

> I do consider many modern pipers to be technically better than the likes of SE....
> modern pipers have the time to devote themselves to perfecting their technique.

From your stated objections to Ennis, I would consider "technique" and being "technically better" two different items. I think your objections to Ennis's later recordings is his choppy timing (which I don't think can be explained away as Ennis solely concentrating on expressiveness at the expense of strict timing, but appears to be a result of his physical abilities breaking down over time, sickness, and abuse). Perhaps you have other objections to his playing, too, that I don't know.

The claim that Ennis that is not known for his technique, however, is off-the-mark. Ennis had piping technique in abundance, arguably the most advanced and complete technique of his day. And not only that, but his practically unparalleled understanding of the music propelled his ability to use said technique to create a "blás" unmatched by probably all but Clancy.

So he not only preserved tunes, but passed on technique so heavily drawn upon by today's pipers. "Shoulders of Giants" is more than apropos here; I get the impression that many players really don't know many details about someone who contributed a great deal to the art and arsenal of "pipering."

> much of the modern stuff is to me quite mediocre compared to the 'Gentlemen Pipers' of the old days.

(Please note what I say next, I'm hopefully able to do without value judgement).

I consider it an aesthetic shift away from the traditional toward the non-traditional. Most people grew up with (for lack of a better word) "pop" music (ie, rock, jazz, 60's acoustic "folk" style, country, what have you)-- group-based, drums, bass lines/chord progressions, rhythm guitar and melodies that are **specifically** honed to work with what the rest of the band is playing. This includes the texture of the sound, the rythmic interplay between all the instruments-- all working together in a detailed balance to create expression and emotion.

In what I consider traditional Irish music, the expressive devices are honed **differently**. It's a lot of hard work to dig into that aesthetic and understand it on its own terms. But the more you do, the better you're able to emotionally connect with the older players.

But most do not dig so deep because they simply don't have to. The tunes are pleasing enough without having to "work at it", and they get the ~most~ expressive satsifaction out of the music by adding in elements and/or listening to groups that added in elements from the musical aesthestic they intimately understand best ("pop"), the biggest element being chord progressions in a constant harmonic accompaniment.

> one appreciates the playing of Ennis and Clancy far more, learning to listen past
> any out-of-timeness or out-of-tuneness.

The idea of learning to "listen past" is probably an excercise in learning what to listen to. I imagine it's fruitless, though, if what those guys do is just not satisfying. How does someone "learn" the emotional reaction as to why these notes played tightly create a perfect sense of phrasing and rhythm, and how this note popped this time but not the other propels the tune into an elegantly-timed crescendo, how this note with off the knee vibrato rather than a stacatto triplet is so effective and tasty here, but not there, how this note can be lengthened to accentuate the lyricism in a phrase... now add variations on top of that.

It's an artistry of expressive details, melded together with purpose and feeling based on intimate understanding of the music's structure and possibilities. Simply put, only the best musicians are able to do it.

It's an approach that works best when solo, because the balance of each variation, the expressive effect of each subtle change, relies on the instrument being the sole voice, and the *best* players absolutely weave it together at that micro-level (this goes beyond pipes of course-- Bobby Casey has to be one of my favorite fiddle players).

> But lionizing their playing as being somehow irreproachable goes beyond naïve into the realm of delusional.

No one says they're irreproachable. The point is that they they have so much going on in their music at a level that takes supreme understanding and talent to produce, that people like myself are too engrossed listening to those substantial artistic elements; the choppier timing in Ennis's later recordings (pure drop/fox chase you mentioned), evidence of his degraded physical abilities, is trivial enough for me that it in no way overpowers his rare expressive might.

As for lionizing, you could probably spend time with those players you mentioned earlier, O'Floinn and Moloney in particular, and talk about how important Ennis was as a player and performer, not collector or preservationist. In the end, I'd hope you find the words "naive" and "delusional" a bit mean-spirited.

[eric]

> PJ, you may be confusing listening to Ennis, Clancy et al as entertainment versus listening to learn from them.

I listen to them out of pure enjoyment, not out of doing homework. Their musicality gives far too much enrapturement that any perceived non-metronomoid timing or imperfect adherence to perfect unwavering pitch (which is a complicated topic in itself: please read Hennebry's book on pitch in traditional Irish music) does not detract from the music.

[Jim McGuire]

It's worth noting that no one can reproduce the sound of Stradavarius' instruments either. Makes you wounder what the future holds for Egan pipes. Will they gain the same mythic reputation?

So we shouldn't try to approach it? or meet and exceed it?

[Jay-eye]

Ah.... It seems things started going downhill once Turlough shuffled off his mortal coil.

Still, I'm alright. I'm having great fun listening to my Jerry O'Sullivan and Becky Taylor cd's!

j.i.

(you know the one)

[PJ]

PJ, you may be confusing listening to Ennis, Clancy et al as entertainment versus listening to learn from them. I, too, have questioned the out of tune sets, the bad quality of the recordings, etc. but I don't know of any of the modern players you are so enraptured with who isn't drawing directly from Ennis or Clancy. Liam O'Flynn's playing is almost note for note from Clancy's version on many tunes. It wasn't just their playing, but the way they played the tunes, the settings they chose, the ornaments they chose, that pipers keep going back for. This is certainly not the sort of stuff the general listening public would be interested in, but for pipers it is a sort of Holy Grail.

I agree that Ennis, Clancy, etc. recordings are great learning tools and that all modern players draw heavily, if not exclusively on them. That's why Ennis, Clancy, etc. are great. They carried the entire tradition through generations when not that many people cared about Irish culture - when it was considered kitch to be into trad music.

By the way, I do enjoy listening to Ennis, Clancy, etc. from time to time, just not all the time (which was my original point).

[eric_smith]

That's why Ennis, Clancy, etc. are great. They carried the entire tradition through generations when not that many people cared

That's just silly. They stand out because of the breadth and depth of their musical expression and virtuosity on their instruments, not to mention the individuality they both brought to the music. There were a fair number of other players during the same period.

Eric

[upiper71]

Hey guys,

Just to re-inspire everone again here is a brilliant clip of SE himself, which is a clip I love SOOO much.

http://www.greenlinnet.com/shopping/sea ... roductID=6

Click on listen and fast-forward to approx: 59:00 minutes up until 102minutes.

Daryl

[Joseph E. Smith]

Now I've heard everything....

Apparently not....... :roll:

...It's out of tune and out of time but just because it's Ennis or Clancy, it's somehow great?

... still not listening... :roll: :roll:

[Patrick D'Arcy]

Pass the pipe there PJ you've been hogging it for far too long now......

PD.

[leremarkable]

I don't want to labour the point, but,

If you don't understand the greatness of Seamus Ennis, then you simply don't understand, and I'm not sure any amount of words of explanation will cause you to understand.

It will just take time.

David

[eric]

> Ah.... It seems things started going downhill once Turlough shuffled off his mortal coil.

Not at all.