Ornamentation

[cj]

This is sort of an offshoot from Belcatar's thread below about reading music vs. playing by ear. I had said that in the 110 Tinwhistle Tunes that even in the beginner music, there seems (from hearing the CD) to be a lot of ornamentation, even in the beginner-rated songs.

This will probably be a DUH question from me, and most of you more accomplished folks will be thinking I'm dense (which may be the case!), but I'm confused about the ornamentation thing. For example, on this CD (companion to the 110 tunes book) as well as other CDs and live whistling I've heard, it seems as though the whistler is doing a cut practically on most beats, every other note or so (in jigs and reels anyhow). Some folks advise to not ornament much at first, but I seem to do better learning the ornamentation along with the tune. It also seems that you can't get that sound without cutting/rolling fairly often.

Of course, this is why ear training is necessary, and I can live with that and am enjoying this part of it. I'm just wondering why they put so much in the beginner-rated songs. Apparently a good amount of ornamentation is necessary to get "that sound" at all (in jigs and reels anyway) even at the early levels of playing. Is there any conventional wisdom on this, or is it a matter of preference?

Thanks!

[avanutria]

I wonder if the experts who make the beginning stuff are just so used to ornaments that they don't think twice about putting them in. Or maybe it's an authenticity thing. I have not gotten a good grasp on ornaments yet, but I was under them impression that there is no 'right' or 'standard' place for ornamentation, that it's a way of improvising on a standard tune.

I am still trying to train myself to NOT tongue every note - 13 years of playing recorder will do that... After I deal with that then I will start more ornamentation. And I will need to find a non-written definition of cuts, rolls, crans, etc, because every time someone explains it to me in email I am still befuddled!

[cj]

I'm with you on the tonguing, avanutria, as I'm classically trained on the Boehm flute. It's good to know I'm not the only one confused, and you're right, it's probably authenticity.

Brother Steve's page (if you haven't gone there already) has great sound clips, as well as explanation, with each ornament broken down.

I can do the individual ones, I'm just unsure on where and when etc.

Thanks.

[Martin Milner]

I often whistle (with my lips) tunes as I'm learning them, and I tend to put in cuts, slides, rolls, taps and the rest naturally. So when I play with a whistle, I try to put in the ornaments in the same sort of way.

When singing songs, ornaments just kind of put themselves in, especially when singing alone.

I prefer to put in ornaments from the word go, rather than learn a tune and then add them in later, but I also don't find them that hard to do (except rolls), so maybe that's why.

I think Brother Steve, who's had a bit of a hard press lately, gives very good advice on this (actually I think all his advice is good), and also in recommending not to put in too much - or you create a seasick feeling in the audience.

[cj]

Thanks, Martin Milner, I'm glad I'm not the only one who'd rather put the ornaments in from the get-go. I sing too so I hear what you're saying about using this to put the ornaments in. But when I sing I don't cut/grace every other note do frequent rolls. It seems to me that to be considered technically "good" or really "Irish/Celtic traditional" (or whatever)--at least from the music I've heard anyhow, you have to put in very frequent ornaments. (I realize I can play in another non-Irish style and do it differently). I'm OK with that, just means I've got a lot to learn!

MM, I agree on Bro. Steve--his pages are wonderful!

Any other session players/pros agree or disagree with this?

Thanks for the input.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: cj on 2002-04-19 14:46 ]</font>

[avanutria]

I'd like to put the ornaments in right away but my fingers can't go that fast yet.

[cj]

Avanutria, I ain't all that yet either speed-wise! I play slowly at first, then get more up to speed, which in my case is definitely not up to what a pro would play it. I guess it's just harder for me to try and learn a tune twice--so I guess it's really laziness on my part!

[StevieJ]

On 2002-04-19 14:42, cj wrote:
It seems to me that to be considered technically "good" or really "Irish/Celtic traditional" (or whatever)--at least from the music I've heard anyhow, you have to put in very frequent ornaments.

What is more important: being considered "technically good" or having people enjoy the music you make?

My advice would be to make up your own mind what sound, what style, what feel, what level of ornamentation you like and go for that.

I think it would be a big mistake to assume you _have_ to do anything in particular, or that there's a simple equation whereby "lots of ornaments = good Irish music".

Whether the listener is an expert or knows absolutely nothing about ITM, your rhythm, lift, musicality and phrasing is what will make your music enjoyable. Ornaments are only one contributing part of all that.

And in fact [surgeon general's warning: this could be depressing] if you don't know the music well, your attempts at ornamentation can easily get in the way of all that.

It's a pity that many people listen only to virtuoso recording artists. On the whole - there are exceptions - the playing of such people is becoming more complex, more virtuosic, cramming in more and more ornaments and stuff.

I find it very refreshing to listen to someone play well without much ornamentation. I'm listening to an example just now - Fr Charlie Coen and his brother Jack (concertina and flute album The Branch Line). Most learners on this board would be much better advised to begin by trying to play like Jack Coen than like Matt Molloy.

[Edited for significant typo]

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-04-19 15:11 ]</font>

[cj]

StevieJ, I did qualify what I said "at least from the music I've heard." The problem then is that I guess I've just never heard anyone play ITM with little or no ornamentation. (This includes CDs, instructional and pleasure-listening, plus live whistlers at pubs--definitely not an exhaustive list, but some range). So maybe my exposure is just limited and I need to listen to more musicians, including some that you've suggested above.

You mentioned your listeners' enjoyment. At this point I don't have any! Well, sometimes my son or some unfortunate friend is at the house when I'm playing. . .

So apparently, the answer to one of my original questions is that it is a matter of preference. I just need to expand my horizons.

Thanks!

[StevieJ]

Of course we may be talking at cross-purposes CJ - what I describe as sparse or moderate ornamentation might sound like a lot to someone just starting out...

The only thing I would add is to let things come naturally - when you decide you would really like to use an ornament or stylistic element that you hear because it sounds good to your ears - that's the time to start putting it in.

BTW the reason I started a website mainly to explain ornamentation was because I heard so many people making a pig's ear of rolls, not because I think they are essential or because I think people should be hung up about them. I like them, but I am perfectly happy listening to music with none.

Cuts mind you are more basic fare, but again, they can be used very sparingly.

[cj]

You're right, StevieJ, it may just be a matter of perception (my idea of much ornamentation vs. someone else's). About the technically-good-vs.-pleasing-listeners, I want to eventually do both! The music I've heard, that is fairly ornamented (to my thinking) does sound great to me. The frequent cuts and somewhat frequent rolls give the music that edge and rhythm that made me like this music and want to play it. So I want to be able to do a fair amount of ornamenting, but not so much that you can't tell what tune it is or it's too cluttered. I just want that rhythmic sound and musical punctuation that makes me remember seeing dancers stepping to jigs and reels at the pubs and festivals I've been to.

Thanks for all the advice and interesting thoughts.

[vaporlock]

I used to play the highland pipes for many years. On the pipes the ornamentations are written into the music. You simply program each set of gracenotes into your brain and then while you're reading the music you recognize the grace note group and your brain executes the preprogramed ornament. Very structured and regimental...very much UNLIKE whistle music.

I think the beauty of Irish music is that you can hear the same song played ten different ways by ten different players. You can also hear the same song played ten different ways by ONE player (sometimes the Bushmills effect).

When I learn a tune I start out slowly usually tonguing each note to get the tune into my brain and then start developing the phrasing. Once the phrasing is down then the ornaments just start popping out wherever they feel like it. I can't do rolls yet (except in slow motion), but use a fair amount of other ornamentation...mostly half-$#@%ed bagpipes stuff that my fingers remember from when I was younger.

I guess for me the bottom line is: 1) I try to make the fact that Irish music doesn't document ornamentation work FOR me. 2) I try not to be a spazz with ornamentation. 3)I try to remember that there is a melody line that I shouldn't stray to far from.

I guess I should qualify...or maybe dis-qualify my comments with the disclaimer that although I have many years of experience on different instruments, I've only been with the whistle for about 6 months...AND (here's the big one) I don't really listen to Irish traditional music much, other than "clips and snips". There are alot of beautiful songs done by whistlers out there, but there are also alot of songs in which the melody has been obliterated by either too much ornamentation or the whistler feeling like "faster is better".

For what it's worth,
Eric

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vaporlock on 2002-04-19 17:18 ]</font>

[SteveK]

On 2002-04-19 15:10, StevieJ wrote:

It's a pity that many people listen only to virtuoso recording artists. On the whole - there are exceptions - the playing of such people is becoming more complex, more virtuosic, cramming in more and more ornaments and stuff.

SEE MA NAG US

Couldn't resist

Steve

[Roger O'Keeffe]

Avanutria, your approach is sound, you'll surely make the cut ;o) as w ahistle player.

While you're learning, it's no harm to overdose on the ornamentation, especially when you're playing in private. Once you've mastered it you will then spontaneously reduce it to a more natural level.

you're also right about experienced players e.g. on demo CDs. When I'm teaching beginners I have to constantly discipline myself to leave out as much of it as I can, but some of it always creeps back in.

Thomas Keenan (Paddy's brother) is a brilliant whistle player who has the music from birth, but people who've taken lessons from him were disappointed because every time he played through a tune he played it completely differently without even realising it. He's definitely a man for the masterclass rather than for the beginner.

[The Weekenders]

This is something you could go round and round about. The important things have been stated but one observation sticks out for new-to-the-whistles types like me:

Treating it just as an instrument, you can get the scales down pretty good quickly and play fast, like on the records. But when you discover that what sounded like a vibrato is actually a 6 note roll, you then have to step way down. Humble pie with whipped cream.

Another example is the reel Sailor's Return. It starts with low dggg (four eighth notes, seemingly). They sound like simple eighth notes and are real perky in context of what follows (its a really happy reel). I was innocently playing them along with my McGrattan record. Upon closer examination and your comments here, I found that they were actually rolls, the kind where you play the first two notes then begin the roll sort of before the second quarter note (see Brother Steve;s offbeat roll,;You know, two eighth notes followed by a quarter with the tilde sign (or asterisk) over the top of the quarter.

Suddenly, the challenge was to sound just as perky but with rolls in the place of simple tongued notes. This is a HUGE difference in execution and skill.Its like the difference between jumping down (or up) to a solid platform, versus jumping down to a firemans net and trying to stay standing up. You do get it, eventually but with a lot of imbalance for a while...

But they are such obvious Irish ornaments for reels, you discover, because so many other pieces start that way or have similar phrasing (Fermoy Lasses, Charlie Mulvihill''s).To not play them is truly inauthentic (but gratifying) and to never learn to do them cuts you off from another whole level of whistling and fitting in with others in the tradition.

And, most importantly, to go down the road of getting used to playing it without them leaves you ill-equipped to then go back and do it right. Someone earlier said they start right away.I agree! It's the old delayed gratification of anything worth doing takes...etc.etc.

I guess a distinction has to be drawn in what are essential ornaments versus clever ones. I was really surprised at the outset of the way people discuss cuts and things on this Forum and at some of the websites. I find it hard to deconstruct a reel and plan cuts and stuff (I suppose that could change in time).It sounds like surgery instead of intuitive response.As soon as I started playing whistle, the little cuts and slides started happening by copying records.Triplets occur to me in place of third jumps more and more now. And reels have obvious shapes to follow in phrasing once you get beyond seeing all those eighth notes in long lines!. But the rolls have had to be learned yet they are more essential I think than what is easily mimicked.

It's mankinds way to not have stuff stay easy! Then anybody could do it and what would be the fun in that? I THOUGHT the pennywhistle seemed easy, too easy, kemosabe...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Weekenders on 2002-04-20 02:54 ]</font>