Do you swing?

[Gio]

Hmmm...although I think Robbie Hannon is a good piper, from all the stuff of his I've heard, I'd have said he is pretty much straight down the line with not much swing

Give a listen to Seidean Si track 15 (although he's swinging in every set of reel). Or his wonderful performance of The Flood on the Holm as David said.
Or I didn't get what is meant with swinging....

[David Lim]

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. Could you rephrase this or give an example? Thx

Eric

I'll certainly give it a try.

When a reel is written out each bar usually contains 8 quavers, arranged as 2 groups of 4.

If I number each group of 4 like this 1234, then the beat, or where you might tap your foot, would be at the beginning of the 1.

You could play the phrasing of the groups of 4 quavers like this:

1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234

This would lead to a straighter feel.

I'm suggesting that swing (as well as rhythmic issues) involves a tendency to phrase like this:

4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123

Each note which is on the beat (the 1) uses the 4 (of the group preceding it) as an upbeat to lead into it, rather than the 4 being the last part of the previous group.

It's difficult to explain, I hope this is clearer.

David

[eric_smith]

Yes, David, that's clearer. If I understand you correctly, this is the kind of thing that fiddlers are known for (but on 2 and 4) that gives such lift to their reels. I think Seamus Ennis was able to do this quite clearly on the pipes even while playing at a good clip.

If you have The Pipering of Willie Clancy Vol I, I'd be interested to know if you think the B part of The Old Bush fits your description.

Eric

[Bill Reeder]

I associate "swing" with fiddle players and sometimes I have a devil of a time trying to play along with them when they accent and emphasize beats in a way I'm not accustomed to. I've gotten to the point where I have to learn a couple of different ways to play every reel I learn just so I'm not unprepared. Playing locally is not a problem because everyone hear plays the way I do. Out of town sessions are a whole new ball game though.

[David Lim]

I've just had a listen to Seamus Ennis playing the first track, Bonnie Kate on "The Return from Fingal". To my ear he is leading into the beat with the 4th note a lot in the first part but not swinging the tune in terms of rhythm, maybe the two things are not linked, maybe they are part of the pallete available to us in creating our music. By the time he gets to "The Flannel Jacket" he seems to be playing very straight.

It's not the sort of thing that can be easily written down so gives further emphasis to the need to listen carefully to good players.

Here in Manchester the degree of swing in the session depends on who is playing, generally it's a light swing. When I lived in Leeds a certain very fine fiddle player always induced heavy swing into any session he played in. He said he preferred it when people moved their shoulders to the music rather than tapped their feet.

David

[ausdag]

. He said he preferred it when people moved their shoulders to the music rather than tapped their feet.

David

So we should all be doing the Eagle Rock while playing reels?

[Gio]

I know it's definately out of topic, but is it Robbie Hannan or Hannon? I find frequently both ways of spelling it although I think that's Hannan as it's the way it's spelled in his recordings.
Sorry guys for this deviation...

[oleorezinator]

a gentleman never tells.

[ausdag]

since many of us seem rather unclear as to what swing is, is it something we consciously do, or does it just happen to varying degrees. Is it one of those 'non-essential essentials' of Irish music?

[Royce]

Paddy Keenan must be the best swinger. Check out ballintore jig.

Yeah baby!!

One of the best for sure--basically look at the basic accents--not holds--accents--the way the jig is expressed in terms of X0X 000 where the X's are the primary syncopated "groove" beats but the actual note value given those X's may often be shorter, not longer for emphasis, playing a cut sometimes to accent the strong note, and then pulling off early and resting on the 0 or weak beat in the center. The effect is the weak beats tend to disappear into a drone base and the accented notes, even sometimes when shorter, snip out of the basic melodic line and produce what I call a "phantom" melody. Snip...Spip diddly Snip...Snip diddly... etc.

But the thing about "swing," is there's thousands of ways and places to "swing" the melody. The "pointed" style mentioned in the thread is just a formulaic, absolutely predictable holding of every other note. At best you pull out a backbeat, the basis of Rock'n roll, but not swing. "Lilt" is probably the best way to describe the style.

In fact, I think I'll just butt out because using words to describe "swing" or "groove" is pretty much why Pat Boone never really covered Little Richard. The fact that you're analysing it means you don't have it and probably never will.

Royce

[Royce]

I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. Could you rephrase this or give an example? Thx

Eric

I'll certainly give it a try.

When a reel is written out each bar usually contains 8 quavers, arranged as 2 groups of 4.

If I number each group of 4 like this 1234, then the beat, or where you might tap your foot, would be at the beginning of the 1.

You could play the phrasing of the groups of 4 quavers like this:

1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234/1234

This would lead to a straighter feel.

I'm suggesting that swing (as well as rhythmic issues) involves a tendency to phrase like this:

4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123/4123

Each note which is on the beat (the 1) uses the 4 (of the group preceding it) as an upbeat to lead into it, rather than the 4 being the last part of the previous group.

It's difficult to explain, I hope this is clearer.

David

That's clear but not even close to "swing." Nothing swings at all. All you're pointing out is that the reel is in straight ahead 4/4 and built on two groups of 8th notes. In that melodic scheme the last note is an upbeat or introductory beat and if you're saying some time seems to get stolen from the preceding note to let this one hang a bit more then yes, this is a very rudimentary "swing" technique, meaning the note values are being played with even though the upbeats and downbeats remain regular. This usually would only happen at the end of a two or four bar phrase though, but if you're suggesting this is always the rule then that's just another formula that gets boring in a hurry.

What you were describing before is really dotting every other note. Now, whether or not you're holding the dot for the full value or not is an individual matter, but this "lilt" is a disruptive pulse that prevents an "Irish" style reel from really getting very "Irish." The metric accent at speed turns into boom chuck boom chuck boom chuck at which point you need a washtub bass, a jug, a snare and a high-hat and a guy up in a tree with a banjo married to his cousin.

Royce

[AlanB]

..

[David Lim]

But the thing about "swing," is there's thousands of ways and places to "swing" the melody. The "pointed" style mentioned in the thread is just a formulaic, absolutely predictable holding of every other note. At best you pull out a backbeat, the basis of Rock'n roll, but not swing. "Lilt" is probably the best way to describe the style.

In fact, I think I'll just butt out because using words to describe "swing" or "groove" is pretty much why Pat Boone never really covered Little Richard. The fact that you're analysing it means you don't have it and probably never will.

Royce

Royce don't butt out because you think we "don't have it and probably never will." We are hopefully here to learn and share, and words are the main tool of analysis on this forum. You obviously have a clear take on this, but just as there is still confusion about what swing is (maybe lilt is a better word) I am only just getting to grips with what you mean by pointed, rounded, groove, etc.

I am not trying to produce a formula for swing/lilt but I have taken a reductivist approach to try and look at what is available in the palette for those who wish to use an analytical approach. A scientific background combined with playing music means I like to try to analyse as well as "feel" my way into piping.

A great player will as you say have "thousands of ways and places to swing the melody". I am just trying to find a way in.

David

[benwalker]

Alan, Where's the first beat of the bar? Listened to it several times but can't figure out where the 1 is
Perhaps it's because i'm a rhythm dork!
David, I was wondering if it's just easier to swing ( or lilt) on an instrument where you can vary the volume using a bow (or breath)
to accent certain notes.
I swing much more playing flute (and fiddle) I tend to play reels a lot more evenly on the pipes.

[David Lim]

I was wondering if it's just easier to swing ( or lilt) on an instrument where you can vary the volume using a bow (or breath)
to accent certain notes.
I swing much more playing flute (and fiddle) I tend to play reels a lot more evenly on the pipes.

I believe you are right that it is far easier to swing/lilt (swilt?) when you have better control of volume and attack on a note, as well as phrasing in general, but I am confident it can be and is done on pipes. The methods may be much more complex and subtle to achieve on the pipes.

I didn't realise you play fiddle as well Ben
Maybe a perspective from someone who plays pipe and can also swing a fiddle, about relative techniques, would be informative?

David