choosing tunes for a set

[Jennie]

I have some pretty solid ideas on how to choose tunes that flow well into each other, don't sound too similar, and have a good contrast in rhythm or key to make a good set. But...

My question is this: I've noticed that lots of folks hear something they like on a recording and then play the same sets of tunes, always following a certain jig with another certain reel, for example, because it sounds so good when Altan (or another favorite band) plays it that way. I'm wondering if this is viewed as good practice, or if, on the other hand, it really turns some musicians off. When does playing tunes in a certain sequence become too cliche?

Jennie

[Danner]

IMHO, go ahead, as long as you don't copy what they do. Maybe tack another tune onto the set, or play the tunes differently; just don't copy what's on the recording. For tunes that everyone always plays together, unless you really love them together, I wouldn't play them together. Some of them are just played together too much, and I kinda get sick of hearing them together. I start to hate some tunes because I am so sick of them being done a certain way. Done differently, I could love them and appreciate them.

I feel both ways. I think that you should do whatever you think is tasteful without coping the recording.

[colomon]

There are definitely some people who get turned off by it. But frankly, I don't understand why (for the most part) -- a lot of the sets played by the great old Irish musicians I love to listen to are the exact same sets recorded in the 20s and 30s on 78rpm records. (Off the top of my head I can think of five sets like this I love to play.)

The trick (as in all things) is to be traditional sometimes and original others. Sometimes it's fun to hit the change that everyone is expecting. Sometimes it's fun to find something new and different.

[Jennie]

Thanks, Danner and Colomon. Sounds like you both have at least experienced the sentiment of annoyance at overused set combinations. But I also appreciate the part about honoring tradition. So I guess I just pay attention to the attitudes expressed by whoever I'm playing with, and keep trying out new combinations as well.

I've recently been working on Cook in the Kitchen - Glenn Allen - Golden Keyboard. They sound pretty good in that order.

jennie

[djm]

Lots of people turn their noses up at this practise when its newer tunes or recognizable combinations from newer groups that you are copying from, but this kind of thing has been going on ever since ITM started being recorded. Many of the "classic" tune combinations come right off the recordings of people like Michael Coleman. They likely weren't played together before by anyone but Coleman, but being able to play a recording over and over provided a new way for people to learn tunes.

An extreme example is the two reels from a recording made in 1934 by flute player John McKenna. The tunes already had names (Colonel Roger's Favourite/The Happy Days of Youth, amongst others) but people not only got used to playing these together from the recording but even went so far as renaming the tunes for the recording - McKenna's #1 and McKenna's #2.

Play what you like, and be flexible enough to change to what others are doing as the need arises.

djm

[dubhlinn]

Play what you like, and be flexible enough to change to what others are doing as the need arises.

djm

My sentiments exactly.


Slan,
D.

[Martin Milner]

The Ballydesmond Polkas 1-3 were originally three separate polkas, until they were put together together in a set by Julia Clifford and Denis Murphy. Now they're usually referred to by numbers, not their original names, which I can't currently recall.

I tend to always put my tunes into sets in the same order, just because it's easier to remember them that way. I may now try to reverse the order and see if I can still get the changes!

cheers, Martin

[SteveShaw]

As a diatonic harmonica player (that's the harmonicas that are diatonic, not me) I'm a little restricted when it come to sets with key-changes, but I do have a few sets with them in - I've got a few tunes I can play cross-harp. I think it's fine to have sets with no key changes if that's what you want. I play a set of three Northumbrian reels, all in G (I nicked 'em off an Alastair Anderson LP!). If others are playing the melodies as well, I can just switch harmonicas if I have to while they keep the set going. You can make up sets with a jig followed by a reel (or two), likewise a hornpipe into a reel, a slow air into a jig, or a strathspey into a reel. All these sound good without a key-change from one tune to the next. Try Laird of Drumblair into Mason's Apron, all in A. There are no rules here I feel. What you do need to do, once you've decided on your set, is to practise the changeover moments like mad. More important still, get your guitar accompanists to practise 'em even more!

Cheers

Steve

[colomon]

As a diatonic harmonica player (that's the harmonicas that are diatonic, not me) I'm a little restricted when it come to sets with key-changes

What you need is a contraption like Don Kavanagh has -- basically six harmonicas in different keys stuck together. He just rotates to the new key and keeps on playing....

There's nothing wrong with playing tunes of the same type and key in a set. Some of the classic sets I love are like this, like "Boys of Ballisodare"/"Five Mile Chase"/"Hare's Paw" (all single reels in G) or "Boys of the Lough" / "Devils of Dublin" (both double reels in D).

On the other hand, if you're playing impromptu sets with other people, it's usually a good idea to make noticable changes when you change tunes. There's another old set, "Duke of Leinster" / "Gardiner's Favorite" that I'd really hesitate before playing in a pub, because the second tune's start is very similiar to the first tune's. All it takes is one player not realizing the tune has changed to create a train wreck....

[Jen.]

I realize this board is about ITM, but it seemed relevant to mention that attitudes vary from tradition to tradition about playing all the tunes in a set in the same key. I read someplace a long time ago a quote from an older player in Cape Breton that said something like, "If you can't play sets all in the same key, you don't know enough tunes!"

That said, Colomon seems to make sense -- "sometimes yes, sometimes no" is often a good path to follow, and this seems to be no exception. It's almost like the difference between a change in color and a change in texture: changing keys is a brighter, more noticeable shift, while staying in the same key can be a subtle way to change the sound of your set without drawing too much attention to the change. It works best, though, when the two tunes in the same key don't have similar patterns to start -- unless you want your fellow players to miss the change!

[Martin Milner]

Don't forget that many Irish tunes are not in conventional keys as classical musicians think of them, but in Dorian or Mixolydian mode, for example.

A D major tune followed by an E Dorian tune, to A Mixolydian, will all use the same two sharps, so can easily be played on the same diatonic harmonica, but will sound like a key change.

[SteveShaw]

Here's a set we play, and I can use a low D harmonica throughout:

Gillan's Apples>>Tripping Upstairs>>Morrison's Jig

That's G Lydian>> D major = D Ionian>> E Dorian

Lots of polkas can easily be played in second position on a harmonica, namely those in A mixolydian, and that's quite a lot.

Cheers

Steve

[SteveShaw]

I have dozens of ITM recordings and there are countless great sets of tunes on them to inspire, but two that immediately sprang to mind when I was thinking of examples were (1) Patrick Street, from the album Irish Times, Doorus Mill/The Rolling Reel/The Ballygow Reel/Denis Murphy's Reel. A jig followed by three reels with the energy level seeming to increase through the set; (2) Altan, from the album The Red Crow, Brenda Stubbert's/Breen's/The Red Box. Three reels, but the set changes up a gear after Brenda Stubbert's. Almost any set by Altan, come to think of it!

I was trying to steer the thread away from harmonicas, though the more astute may have spotted that the Ballygow Reel was written by a harmonica player .

Very arbitrary, and I'm sure everyone will have their own particular favourites.

Cheers!

Steve