What Am I Missing Here?

[PhilO]

Hey Loren, what's up? I don't know which end of the hand made - mass produced spectrum Mike Burke or John Sindt are closer to, but they make some really fine whistles. The Burke black tips in soprano D and C and E are outrageous as well as the Viper Low D. The Sindt C is a classic.

Copelands - well I have the best whistle ever made in Low G, as well as magical Bflat, A and Eflat whistles.

If you're ever in NY, you can try em - of course, you'll be subjected to a full search by professionals on the way out.

Philo

[Dale]

I don't really care whether the tubing is cut by use of CNC computer etc., because these are generally individually hand voiced anyway.

Bwaaaa haaaaa haaa ha!!!

Man, you really gave me a good laugh there buddy. Hand voiced, hee hee hee, Good one!
.....

Loren

Clarke originals, are, in fact, individually hand-voiced. I've seen it with me on eyes.

Dale

[kevin m.]

Re 'D' v 'C'.
Uninterestingly enough,I was playing a variety of whistles this afternoon(my first great whistle bash of 2005),and amongst the contenders were my Copeland low 'D' and Alba low 'C'.
Both very individualistic,and different, instruments.
I must admit that I didn't used to be all that keen on 'C'whistles (though my only previous 'c' was a Gen.),but I DID enjoy the Alba today-very manouverable,easy finger stretch,wind in the cosmic drainpipe tone, etc.
Didn't my guru-Micho Russell-play a 'C' whistle quite a bit?

I'm currently waiting for a Sindt 'C',after hearing all the 'killer-diller' spiel about this being the 'best' Sindt.
We'll see (incidentally,my Eb Sindt was in the play today-lovely whistle!)

[PhilO]

As to the "usefullness" of C whistles, a while back I sold a Copeland C to a Boarder in Germany, who I believe plays in a band and in sessions, although I don't know if that's what he used it for.

I was playing C whistles all day today - Burke, Sindt, O'Riordan - each different and lovely fun to play.

Philo

[Wanderer]

I hear different opinions

Of course I just know that I'm not the only one who doesn't like D tunes played on C whistles. It wouldn't be surprising at all if other people had other tastes. But I mentioned that I was sure I wasn't alone in that opinion, because several people have told me the same thing. So, I do know it's not just me

Everyone has different tastes and all, which I certainly recognize. But I do know that every session I've gone to, C whistles end up being pretty neglected. I certainly wasn't knocking them..I was just trying to provide an answer to the question, which was "why hasn't this thing been sold?"

[Cayden]

No you were providing the opinion that irish music played in C sounds pretty crap. Now for one thing it could be argued that the old German concertinas and whistles used by a previous generation were pitched in C rather than in concert pitch, so playing in that key was common to say the least. A lot of (older) fiddlers preferred to have the fiddle tuned to around C, on a lot of old recordings of Junior Crehan and Bobby Casey the fiddle is just that, tuned a tone below concert pitch, Martin Rochford often had his fiddle tuned lower than concert pitch. That aside, he very strongly felt about the mood change acquired by actually transposing the tunes on the fiddle to what he called 'the darker keys'. A practice Martin Hayes still follows (see the first tuen on his first album, the Morning Star which he plays a tone down on a standard pitched fiddle). Kevin Crehan on what I still think of as the most wonderful fiddle album of recent years transposed a lot of tunes to the key of C. Need I mention Mary MacNamara, Pat O Connor, Kitty Hayes, John Naughton? have you heard Brian MacNamara's Cds? Willie Clancy playing the c Clarke and the C pipes he borrowed off Dan O Dowd for the Seoda Cheoil recording? Now none of these would be described as 'crap'. Well maybe by you but not by the majority of people with an ear for Irish music.
Kevin above menioned Micho, Micho usally played his e flat but other than that he would favour C whistles, I have one C he particularly liked, a dented generation one, and he was forever borrowing that off me, when we had tunes we would play in C.
I happened to have sent a few people clips in C yesterday just before your comment, all comments that came back were more than favourable. So yes, I hear different opinions.

[Loren]

Phil Wrote: "Hey Loren, what's up? I don't know which end of the hand made - mass produced spectrum Mike Burke or John Sindt are closer to, but they make some really fine whistles. The Burke black tips in soprano D and C and E are outrageous as well as the Viper Low D. The Sindt C is a classic. "

I've got no problem at all with machine made whistles, I think many, including Mike's and Jon's are wonderful. Does Jon use CNC though? For some reason I was under the impression he machined everything by hand......I could be mistaken.

My comment about hand voicing, well, I'll get back to that further along here.....

"Copelands - well I have the best whistle ever made in Low G, as well as magical Bflat, A and Eflat whistles. If you're ever in NY, you can try em - of course, you'll be subjected to a full search by professionals on the way out. "

I suppose it's possible, but honestly, that C Whistle I sold Jessie is, in many ways, the best whistle I've ever played. I look forward to trying your Copelands at some point, I'm certain our paths will cross eventually my friend

Best,

Loren

[Loren]

I don't really care whether the tubing is cut by use of CNC computer etc., because these are generally individually hand voiced anyway.

Bwaaaa haaaaa haaa ha!!!

Man, you really gave me a good laugh there buddy. Hand voiced, hee hee hee, Good one!
.....

Loren

Clarke originals, are, in fact, individually hand-voiced. I've seen it with me on eyes.

Dale

I don't doubt that Dale, but I think all things become relative, with perspective, no?

My original comment was directed towards Phil's statement that he didn't care if a CNC Machine made an instrument, because it will be hand voiced anyway. My points are: A) If an instrument is properly designed and executed on a CNC machine, the amount of hand voicing necessary should be so minimal that calling it "Hand Voiced" is misleading. Why do I say this? Well, by definition, the voicing process includes adjusting windway height, width, taper, chamber, as well as window size, ramp angle, block chamfer, blade finish, etc. Now, by and large, a well made CNC instrument will have all of this stuff 98% completed before anyone goes to work "hand voicing" it, so I wouldn't really consider it hand voiced, so much as cleaned up as the last step of production, and certainly far less experience and skill would go into "voicing" the instrument this way, than were it made from scratch.

To look at it another way: When considering jewelry that is "Hand Made", do you expect something that was created basically from scratch - hand forged, hand soldiered, hand textured, hand filed, hand sanded, hand polished, and so on? What if a piece is simply mass cast, from a mold, and then someone simply spends a (relatively) small amount of time hand filing and polishing off the rough edges....... would you consider this "Hand Made"?

That's the way I see the issue - Those $10.00 sterling rings you see at every mall kiosk are not Hand Made.

Again, machines make it possible for us (in some cases) to have fantastic instruments at low prices, which I think is great, but let's call a spade a spade.

Loren

[Jerry Freeman]

The hand made vs. machine made discussion is an interesting one.

I've been to places in the world (e.g., India, Philippines) where many things are still made one at a time by tailors, shoemakers (OK, two at a time), cabinetmakers, etc. At first, the idea of something "made BY HAND, for me personally" seems special. Then you begin to find out that the workmanship is quite ordinary, and you discover a renewed respect for mass produced, precision machine made items.

When production machines first came into the furniture making industry, there was great excitement among consumers. The idea that some things were made by MACHINES made them sought after, and far more valuable to consumers of the day than things made by hand. The implication being, machines were/are capable of maintaining standards of precision and consistancy that individual hand craftsmen were/are not.

But nowadays, machine made things are the commonplace, and handmade things are the less common, so the perception of value is reversed.

Best wishes,
Jerry

[Wanderer]

No you were providing the opinion that irish music played in C sounds pretty crap.

Not to mention, I think D irish tunes transposed to C generally sound like crap. I am pretty sure I'm not alone in that opinion either wink.

That sounds like I'm conveying my personal opinion that D tunes played on C whistles don't sound so great to me. And that I know I'm not the only one who thinks that way, because other people have told me that. That's all I've said, and provided it as a possible answer as to why the whistle perhaps didn't move the first time around.

If you want to turn this into some kind of fight, feel free to try. I'm not even going to bother to read the rest of your post beyond what I've quoted above. Enjoy your smug superiority, Peter.

[Cayden]

Right, I didn't argue with you on the opinion bit , as I said:

No, you were providing the opinion that irish music played in C sounds pretty crap

You referred (see your own quote) to Irish music transposed to C sounding like crap (please note I didn't see a specific reference to C whistles there) and I argued a different opinion with what what i think as a good number of examples that would prove you wrong, in my opinion and in that of quite a few others.

And you weren't even bothered reading it, calling ME smug

[Azalin]

Now I wonder, how many "D" tunes transposed to "C" are actually "C" tunes transposed to "D" ? From what I've heard, I wouldnt be surprised if there's a bunch of them.

[Darwin]

Now I wonder, how many "D" tunes transposed to "C" are actually "C" tunes transposed to "D" ? From what I've heard, I wouldnt be surprised if there's a bunch of them.

I'm in no position to comment on Irish music, but in the US, Old-Timey and Bluegrass fiddle tunes tend to be in either D or A, because those are the keys that are favored by fiddle players. That's partly because those keys are the easiest for getting open-string drones. In Old-Timey music, it's not unusual to find fiddles tuned ADad, AEae, or GDgd (along a few oddities like AEac# and DDad). I don't think that G is nearly as common in OTM as it is in ITM, though it does occur. C is quite rare, and you may run into people who transpose the few F tunes into D.

So, although I mostly play guitar out of C and G configurations, my capo is almost always on the second fret for fiddle tunes.

On the other hand, Bluegrass banjo players tend to create new tunes in G, to match the most common tuning, and less often in C and D. Old-Timey banjo players tend to use all kinds of wild tunings, so other keys are more common, but still seem to be somewhat limited, possibly to make things easier for the fiddle players.

That's not to say that other keys aren't used in BG and OTM, but they aren't nearly as common as D, A, and G. (Songs are another matter. The keys in that case are generally dictated by the vocal ranges of the singers. And, even though dance tunes may have words, they've often been added after the fact. No one is likely to transpose Sally Goodin' into C# to accomodate a singer.)

I wouldn't be surprised if the choice of D as the standard for the Irish whistle (and pipes?) was originally chosen to match the fiddle, but became a limiting factor in itself. I would also expect that there was a time when the pipes were mostly solo instruments, fiddles were rare, and there was no standard key, but that's just speculation. I'm sure someone here knows the actual facts.

[Wanderer]

(please note I didn't see a specific reference to C whistles there)

Gee..my mistake. I was pretty sure I was on a whistle board, posting specifically in a thread about a C whistle and why it didn't sell. I'm sorry it wasn't self evident.

that would prove you wrong,

The reason I can't be bothered to read the rest of your post is that I wasn't really attempting to prove anything at all. I was just conveying an opinion. You're the one with evidently something to prove...and personally, I don't care to be a party to it. I've said my piece, and gave my opinion about the whistle in question. This is the last post from me in this thread about it.

[Scott McCallister]

The hand made vs. machine made discussion is an interesting one....At first, the idea of something "made BY HAND, for me personally" seems special. Then you begin to find out that the workmanship is quite ordinary, and you discover a renewed respect for mass produced, precision machine made items....

I think it can run both good and bad for each instance of manufacture. My full set of Uilleann Pipes was "made by hand for me personally" and is a stunning work of art in both fit and finish (as well as a fine, fine instrument) and with the exception of the extruded tubing used on the bass drone, reed caps, and ferrules, I believe everything else on the set was completely fabricated from raw materials by the maker. Absolutely stunning. By the same token, my brother's laguole knife I had admired for years was also made by hand for him personally. I liked it so much I ordered one, but here, as you pointed out, the quality was not what I expected, fit and finish was not as perfect. The file work on the blade and spring were less sophisticated, even the sheath was a lower quality leather. I don't know if this could be attributed to general guality standards of the shop or if the one I got was simply made by an apprentice. (funny, the money I spent was of professional quality)

From the machine production aspect. I suppose you could revel in every BMW that rolls off the line as a thing of precision and beauty. Similarly the general lack of quality of most Generation Whistles draws a striking contrast.

Interesting thoughts.