Blowing out of tune -- help?

[baggins_21]

Thanks for all of the replies about practicing--they're reassurring. This morning however, my wife and I tried to play together (her on the violin and me on the flute) and I found out that even when I tuned to 442 at first, very quickly I started blowing really sharp and I couldn't control it. This is fairly depressing considering the fact that it's difficult to play with others if you can't stay in tune. Has anyone had this problem? Again, it's really strange--I'll tune it to 442 and be fine, and then I'll start playing out of tune almost immediately.
Any help would help,
Lost in China

[Henke]

I've had this problem as well. I think the flute is a very difficult instrument in that regard. Especially before you develop a very consistent embouchure the flute will have a slightly different tuning every time you put your mouth to it. There are a few tricks to correct the tuning while playing. If you start to notice you're playing sharp you could try to direct the airstream further down in the hole, as if you would roll the headpiece in towards you. Also if you overblow the flute, it will play sharp, try to focus the airsteam on the sweetspot and cut back a little on the airpressure. This takes a lot of practicing and experimenting. You could also try to tune the flute to different notes, like G, B, E and then all those in the second octave aswell. Most simple system flutes will have notes that are slightly off. If you know which notes are off, you can start to correct while playing.

[jim stone]

SEcond this. You may find control increases
considerably as you play.
Also if you are going sharp,
you might tune flat.

A wife who plays violin? Mine boxes.

[peeplj]

I'm going to take a guess that when you tune you are playing at a moderate volume but when you are playing with the fiddle you are pushing harder to match her volume.

The tuning slide on a flute is to get you close. Ultimately, you play a flute into pitch.

I would practice deliberately making the pitch sharper and flatter without using the tuning slide, just using lips and air pressure for the difference.

Also if you have a tuner that will produce a pitch, just practice matching the pitch and trying to get it beatless.

Just my thoughts. Given time you'll get the control that lets you do this kind of thing "automatically" when playing.

--James

[claudine]

Maybe the flute sounds sharper because it gets warm when you play it.

[David Levine]

I posted this before. Forgive the length of the post and ignore it in favor of playing.

I’ve been following the discussion of tuning, pitch, and head joints with some interest. In my home session in the States I’d play with people who were often out of tune—as might happen in any session with ten musicians. I’d go nuts when other flute players blew sharp in the upper octave, especially if the fiddlers’ played their high Bs and As a tad flat. In the past month I’ve had a playing revelation.
In Ireland I’ve often been playing with only two or three other very good musicians in small public sessions. Everything about one’s playing becomes obvious, painfully so, in these intimate sessions. As my flute warmed up the box-player would sometimes hint, gently, that I was bit sharp. I would tune it spot on with the box and the fiddle. But then if I put the flute down for a few minutes the flute would be a bit flat when I picked it up.
The box-player had played with Michael Hynes for years. When I asked if Michael had ever had that problem he said that Michael was always in tune. How did Michael manage to stay in tune? He said that Michael blew or lipped his flute into tune, even if he was a half-tone out to start with.
It was a revelation to me—and I’d been playing for years. All I had to do was to listen very carefully to the other musicians—especially to the box – and care about being in tune as we played. If not I could blow the flute into tune. I had to ignore the slide and initial tuning except as a rough guide. I couldn’t depend on the slide to get the flute consistenly in tune with other instruments. I learned to tune on the hoof, so to speak.
That was weeks ago. I’ve learned that my sweet spot can vary. As I roll the flute in or out I can still blow just as clearly as when I thought only one spot gave the clarity and projection I wanted. My embouchure has become more focused as well as more relaxed. Tension in my neck and shoulders has been reduced. I assume this is obvious to more accomplished players. Best of all, I am always in tune. The box-player now smiles at me sweetly.
I’m sure that classical players 150 years ago were always in tune, having to compensate continually for a floating fixed pitch, and having to play a flute – with dodgy tuning to begin with – across three three octaves.

[meemtp]

It's funny, I rarely play the flute when playing with others. One, I'm better at the fiddle, but I also have experienced problems playing in tune, even when I've tuned my flute to the box or 'tina. I did notice that it became easier when I did the same as David, just listened more to the other players and adjusted accordingly. That said, it still takes a bit of effort and concentration on my part, plus I may be off for the first few notes. I really should bring the flute more often and work on that becoming second nature. Thanks for sharing though David, good to know I was on to something there!

[rama]

mr. levine,
beware of box players, especially if they smile at you sweetly...i hope you practice 'safe' fluting. you don't want to catch anything...
btw, you mentioned one of my fav fluters - mick hynes. great full tone, spot on every note, never a slip up, like finely oiled machine. on one of my early trips to ireland, esp. co. clare, he and the box player, i'm sure it's the same guy, were playing together. i, being a total stranger to him, asked if i could record him. (i believe he was playing a hamilton flute at the time, for those of you who 'just gotta know'.) he placed the tape recorder right in front of him. he would turn it on just before he started playing a set of tunes, and then shut it off as soon as he finished each set. he did it all night. i got a perfect recording. the guy never missed a beat. people were dancing all night too.
needless to say the next stop in my travels was cuil-aodha, macroom, co. cork.

[mvhplank]

...All I had to do was to listen very carefully to the other musicians—especially to the box – and care about being in tune as we played. If not I could blow the flute into tune. I had to ignore the slide and initial tuning except as a rough guide. I couldn’t depend on the slide to get the flute consistenly in tune with other instruments. I learned to tune on the hoof, so to speak. ...

That's an excellent explanation and touches on what I've been experiencing myself. I've also noticed that if I have the music in front of me, I don't listen as carefully as I should. (One more reason to memorize!) Conversely, when I'm in a group situation (more a loosely structured jam than session, usually), I'm forced to listen to everybody (including me) and fine-tune accordingly.

M

[baggins_21]

It's nice to know that others have had this problem too--now I just need to train my ear to notice the difference between what's coming out of my flute, and what's coming out of their boxes (or violins as the case may be). I think the "find the pitch and practice matching it" is especially helpful, and the advice about not depending on the slide.
Thanks again folks, this site has been a goldmine of important information. BTW, I've found a session at the Blarney Stone in Shanghai--I guess Dervish was there this weekend. It's my first time, and I always get more nervous when I play with others--I mean seriously. But I'm really looking forward to it. Hope you all are enjoying the day, and that it's not as cold and damp as Shanghai right now.
baggins

[meemtp]

Oh it's worse here, a blizzard warning in effect until 6pm tomorrow.

[fyffer]

Only two quick comments from me here (blizzard winding down here, too):

1) As your flute warms up (especially wood flutes), the the pitch goes up. this is because the air moves more freely through the flute at a higher temperature, and the frequency of the note depends on the density of the air that is vibrating. And any chemist or physicist will tell you that in a closed volume of air, as the temperature increases, the pressure increases. Think about your car tires: When they are cold, the 35 psi pressure is fine, but when they are warm (from outside air temperature or fast driving), the pressure is higher, and you have to bleed some air from the tires.

2) One cannot emphasize *listening* too strongly. Before you try to play in tune with a group, make sure you're warmed up, then play along, find *roughly* where the group is, tune to them, and then you must *constantly* make adjustments based on what you hear.

OK those were supposed to be quick and short, but I'm stuck inside and I got nothin else to do but type.

Three cheers for the "Blizzard of '05" !!