So, if I'm following the thinking correctly here, using tubing (which I have done so far) for a staple creates a larger internal volume in the staple at the eye end as opposed to using a rolled staple which is slightly tapered correct?
And this internal volume is what will affect the tuning of the second octave the most correct? If it's too large (as it *may* be with tubing) this might be the root cause of my high B and C# going sharp on me?
Last question for those of you who roll your own (:twisted:) do you anneal the sheet first? And do you prefer brass or copper? I've been told to look for .020" sheets if I can find it.
Thanks!
Staples - rolled vs. tubing...tuning discrepencies?
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reedman
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Hello Brian, What was the original staple made from,? Tubeing probably,
did it play okay with the original reed?, 1.the staple eye height can also effect the tuning, 2. use brass sheet for hand rolled staples, no you don't need to annail the brass sheet,Evertjan't Hart's site has or had some Gen on rolling staples Brian, I would think you should be able to make a reed to work fine in your chanter made of tubing Brian,try and copy the original staple dimension as close as possible, this is were a set of Digital Calipers come in very handy,have you got a jig for hand rolling staples,if not you can get one from the NPU,persevere on the staple dimensions,is this one of your own reeds your having trouble with the tuning brian?.
did it play okay with the original reed?, 1.the staple eye height can also effect the tuning, 2. use brass sheet for hand rolled staples, no you don't need to annail the brass sheet,Evertjan't Hart's site has or had some Gen on rolling staples Brian, I would think you should be able to make a reed to work fine in your chanter made of tubing Brian,try and copy the original staple dimension as close as possible, this is were a set of Digital Calipers come in very handy,have you got a jig for hand rolling staples,if not you can get one from the NPU,persevere on the staple dimensions,is this one of your own reeds your having trouble with the tuning brian?.
There's those who know,
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and there's those who think they know,
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djm
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The differences between tubes versus rolled staples has been beaten to death several times, with tubing being preferred for convenience and rolled for control. I use copper at .021" because I couldn't find brass at .020". I have no idea what the difference would be for something as small as a staple. I anneal the copper, although the need for this one has been beaten to death, as well.
djm
djm
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Brian Lee
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Reedman: I'm not entirely certain. I believe it was tubing, but the reed I got with the chanter when I recieved it had been "fixed" to play more in tune in the second octave. I do assume though, that the tubing staple used was original. The tuning was pretty good, but still had some problems in the top half of the second octave. I do have calipers and have been very closely measuring everything I can. The staples I've made from tubing seem to work well in most cases - but are also exibiting the same sort of intonation problems as noted with the original reed. Some are closer than others though, which leads me to believe it is likely a reed/staple volume issue as opposed to just having bum chanter. (I suppose that's still a possibility though)
DJM: So can we beat it again? I didn't find much of help on initial searches. Besides, why not discuss the differences again as there are more than one of us making reeds right now that could benefit and this is a piping board after all.
For myself, I'm not interested in who thinks what is better or worse - but rather in understanding what the fundamental tuning differences are between the two types. It is my understanding that some makers will tune a chanter to use the tubing and other chanters won't work at all (in tune that is) unless it's the tapered rolled variety.
As to the difference being very small, yes, it certainly is. However, think of how much cane is removed with two or three quick scrapes on the cane. Pretty small there too. And, as we know, two or three scrapes too many can ruin an otherwise great reed.
At any rate, my initial question remains unanswered: What are the tuning differences between the two types of staples - assuming the same length and throat diameters. What is gained or lost using rolling vs. tubing?
Thanks guys.
DJM: So can we beat it again? I didn't find much of help on initial searches. Besides, why not discuss the differences again as there are more than one of us making reeds right now that could benefit and this is a piping board after all.
For myself, I'm not interested in who thinks what is better or worse - but rather in understanding what the fundamental tuning differences are between the two types. It is my understanding that some makers will tune a chanter to use the tubing and other chanters won't work at all (in tune that is) unless it's the tapered rolled variety. As to the difference being very small, yes, it certainly is. However, think of how much cane is removed with two or three quick scrapes on the cane. Pretty small there too. And, as we know, two or three scrapes too many can ruin an otherwise great reed.
At any rate, my initial question remains unanswered: What are the tuning differences between the two types of staples - assuming the same length and throat diameters. What is gained or lost using rolling vs. tubing?
Thanks guys.
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brianc
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All the reedmakers I've seen have annealed the staple material AFTER it was rolled. The same was done - after - for a tube which was cut to length and the ends were slightly reamed in order to remove an burrs left behind by the cutting process.
As for "rolled v. tube", I believe the conventional wisdom is that there's no discernible difference between the two - the more important factor is the inner diameter being "best" for the specific chanter being reeded. And of course that will take either experience, or the cannibalization of a previously successful reed used in that chanter.
As for "rolled v. tube", I believe the conventional wisdom is that there's no discernible difference between the two - the more important factor is the inner diameter being "best" for the specific chanter being reeded. And of course that will take either experience, or the cannibalization of a previously successful reed used in that chanter.
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snoogie
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Brian, I've got the same issues with high octave notes (a somewhat, b more so) being sharp. I'm using a tubing staple that I cannibalized from one of the maker's reeds. Which also had the same issue in the top octave...but not quite as bad.
I didn't worry too much about it...if they were a bit out of tune so what..I'm a beginner...someday when I'm more experienced I'll worry about it...
Well now that I'm on the quest for the 'perfect reed' you've gotten me worrying about it.
In doing a search I came across several threads which may help.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16145
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=19257
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=13888
The first talks about a solution to the problem by tweaking the scrape. The second & third I think somewhat address your original question about the affects of internal diameter and tapered staples.
I may have to try the rolled staple also, but it'll take a while to find the right mandrel. My chanter is a narrow bore, so it uses the next size smaller staple tubing than you guys are using.
My first step is to get a second reed working as well as the first one I made, and they've been played for a while..then I'll have a base from which to experiment.
21 years to learn how to play the darn things, 42 years spent learning how to make reeds!
Keep up the posting...I learn best by talking thru things, and giving them a try myself...reading the old posts are helpful, but until I started making reeds myself, I couldn't really understand any of the nuances being discussed.
If djm doesn't want to 'reed' these posts (pun intended) he can ignore them.
-gary
I didn't worry too much about it...if they were a bit out of tune so what..I'm a beginner...someday when I'm more experienced I'll worry about it...
Well now that I'm on the quest for the 'perfect reed' you've gotten me worrying about it.
In doing a search I came across several threads which may help.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=16145
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=19257
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=13888
The first talks about a solution to the problem by tweaking the scrape. The second & third I think somewhat address your original question about the affects of internal diameter and tapered staples.
I may have to try the rolled staple also, but it'll take a while to find the right mandrel. My chanter is a narrow bore, so it uses the next size smaller staple tubing than you guys are using.
My first step is to get a second reed working as well as the first one I made, and they've been played for a while..then I'll have a base from which to experiment.
21 years to learn how to play the darn things, 42 years spent learning how to make reeds!
Keep up the posting...I learn best by talking thru things, and giving them a try myself...reading the old posts are helpful, but until I started making reeds myself, I couldn't really understand any of the nuances being discussed.
If djm doesn't want to 'reed' these posts (pun intended) he can ignore them.
-gary
There is no try, only do or not do. - Yoda
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Brian Lee
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Thanks for the links Gary. I had found two of those three in my searches too - but the argument of US vs. metric didn't really seem to answer any questions for me. 
I've given thought to a quick and dirty 'fix' that might help a tubing staple to have more of the properties of a rolled staple. What about taking one of those flat toothpicks and shaving it down to a fine point at one end. Then if you glued it into your staple thick end towards the eye, you could more closely approximate the internal diameters of a rolled staple. It might take two - with one on each side of the eye perhaps, but it might help to shrink the internal volume down enough to be effective.
Or not.
We'll see what I can come up with over the next few weeks.
I've given thought to a quick and dirty 'fix' that might help a tubing staple to have more of the properties of a rolled staple. What about taking one of those flat toothpicks and shaving it down to a fine point at one end. Then if you glued it into your staple thick end towards the eye, you could more closely approximate the internal diameters of a rolled staple. It might take two - with one on each side of the eye perhaps, but it might help to shrink the internal volume down enough to be effective.
Or not.
We'll see what I can come up with over the next few weeks.-
djm
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Gary, its not a matter of not wanting to "reed" anything. I just don't want to get into the same pointless debates about the the most obscure matters that probably have no bearing on Brian's problems, e.g. copper vs brass, anneal vs not anneal. I personally think a rolled staple gives more control over the shape vs a tube staple, but have no scientifically incontrovertable evidence. I know for sure that at one point I had come across a reed trouble-shooting guide (if this, then do this), and I have been searching for it, but no luck yet. It will turn up when I go searching for something else. I do not have Brian's problem, so am not able to help.
djm
djm
I'd rather be atop the foothills than beneath them.
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snoogie
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Sorry, djm, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers...just trying for a bit of humor. 
Brian, if you go all the way to the end of the seemingly endless debate on US vs. Metric you get a nugget..
Brian, if you go all the way to the end of the seemingly endless debate on US vs. Metric you get a nugget..
srfmowman wrote: This is an update on the reed that I had questions on. After a week, I had to put a twist tie in the bottom of the chanter to flatten bottom D and 2nd E was going sharp. I played the reed like this until three days ago and then the quest for scientific reed exploration poked up its ugly head.
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Brian Lee
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Yeah...but a nugget of WHAT?! 
LOL
So, apart from the ages old debate between what metal to use and all that, I'm still thinking that there is more than meats the eye when it comes to comparing rolled vs. tubing as far as fine tuning is concerned. As has previously been mentioned, it seems that a higher degree of control is attainable with a conical staple shape as opposed to a cylendrical one.
I'll see if I can find anything happening by trying some rushes in the upper half of the next few staples I make and hopefully there'll be some discernable difference.
Made three new reeds over yesterday and today, and all three were fair...but again, still had the same tuning issues on that upper hand, second octave. At least that much is reproducing itself faithfully!!
LOL
So, apart from the ages old debate between what metal to use and all that, I'm still thinking that there is more than meats the eye when it comes to comparing rolled vs. tubing as far as fine tuning is concerned. As has previously been mentioned, it seems that a higher degree of control is attainable with a conical staple shape as opposed to a cylendrical one.
I'll see if I can find anything happening by trying some rushes in the upper half of the next few staples I make and hopefully there'll be some discernable difference.
Made three new reeds over yesterday and today, and all three were fair...but again, still had the same tuning issues on that upper hand, second octave. At least that much is reproducing itself faithfully!!
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dirk
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Hi Brian,
I wish I'd read your post sooner, but I was too busy working on reeds in between baby-sitting shifts. Check out Seth Gallagher's site on reed-making and maintenance: http://www.uilleann.com/maintenance.html
I have been reading those pages and studying them in between reeds, and my experiences with making reeds for his chanter are right on. So far, I haven't annealed the copper, but I'm planning on trying that soon. I use a wood block when shaping it around the mandrel - it keeps the kinks out.
With the conical/rolled staple, the biggest change I have noticed is it's easier to sustain the high notes - everything from second octave A and up - all the way to high d. Tuning is a relative thing though. If you have reed blades that have the high A and B in tune using a tube staple, then a conical staple with a larger diameter would make the reed sharper in those notes. So, you would need relatively longer blades on the conical staple to flaten those notes. There are several variables that affect tuning, and I believe you can make either staple type that is perfectly in tune.
Frankly all the different things to change various individual notes by scraping or shaping the reed in different ways is still a very confusing thing to me, and I'd really like to get as much discussion going on that as possible to help me learn this faster. I'm not so young, and I don't have 40 years to learn this.
I wish I'd read your post sooner, but I was too busy working on reeds in between baby-sitting shifts. Check out Seth Gallagher's site on reed-making and maintenance: http://www.uilleann.com/maintenance.html
I have been reading those pages and studying them in between reeds, and my experiences with making reeds for his chanter are right on. So far, I haven't annealed the copper, but I'm planning on trying that soon. I use a wood block when shaping it around the mandrel - it keeps the kinks out.
With the conical/rolled staple, the biggest change I have noticed is it's easier to sustain the high notes - everything from second octave A and up - all the way to high d. Tuning is a relative thing though. If you have reed blades that have the high A and B in tune using a tube staple, then a conical staple with a larger diameter would make the reed sharper in those notes. So, you would need relatively longer blades on the conical staple to flaten those notes. There are several variables that affect tuning, and I believe you can make either staple type that is perfectly in tune.
Frankly all the different things to change various individual notes by scraping or shaping the reed in different ways is still a very confusing thing to me, and I'd really like to get as much discussion going on that as possible to help me learn this faster. I'm not so young, and I don't have 40 years to learn this.
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brianc
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dirk wrote:I have been reading those pages and studying them in between reeds, and my experiences with making reeds for his chanter are right on.
Wanted: Experience reedmaker in Colorado who can make reeds for Gallagher pipes. Must enjoy home-poured Guinness draft, IRTrad sessions in private residences, and/or .... CASH.
So, Dirk, know anybody who fits that description.
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Brian Lee
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Aw MAN! If I'd have known you had to be named Dirk.....SHEESH! Here I was all ready to drive on out and have a go at it!brianc wrote:dirk wrote:I have been reading those pages and studying them in between reeds, and my experiences with making reeds for his chanter are right on.
Wanted: Experience reedmaker in Colorado who can make reeds for Gallagher pipes. Must enjoy home-poured Guinness draft, IRTrad sessions in private residences, and/or .... CASH.
So, Dirk, know anybody who fits that description.
Does reeding a Gallagher C chanter count Brian? 