Urgent question about tinwhistle "culture"

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

In Ireland every child (I think - correct me if I'm mistaken guys) gets at least some musical instruction on the tin whistle, and somehow it does not leave them with a life long aversion to that instrument.

Oh, I don't know about that one...I think you'd find more than plenty of people in Ireland who are not a bit too fond of tinwhistles...

Sometimes I think the whole anti-recorder thing gets so boorish and silly. As an instrument, it's as good as any other and I don't see any reason why it could not be developed to play in the traditional Irish idiom just as well as a whistle.

Any instrument, if forced upon you as a child, can result in lasting indemnity in that child's memory. I wanted to love the piano and I wound up hating it for years...

When I was living in Japan, the Ministry of Education enacted a plan to require all Japanese middle school students to study traditional Japanese instruments. I think this is a profoundly stupid idea--mostly because it involves teachers from other disciplines being forced to learn the basics of the instruments themselves and then teach the students. How is a 13 year old going to develop any interest or appreciation for the shamisen if they're learning it from a burnt-out old science teacher who doesn't give a s**t about shamisen music?

All that being said, when I first started learning whistle and going to sessions, there was this bodhran and recorder player there who went on and on about how much better recorders were than whistles and he annoyed the living hell out of me...

[Flyingcursor]

I recently bought a Hohner wooden soprano. It has a great tone but it feels to me as though it lacks the the expressiveness of a whistle. I used to be a lot better on those things until I started playing whistle.
I hadn't considered using it at church. I think I will.

And I haven't found any message boards for any instruments as fun as this one. In fact this is THE message board. Yes, above Fark.
I am part of an autoharp mailing list but the community is small and most people know each other. Off topic stuff is discouraged so there are a lot of repeats. Even more then our very own, "How to behave as sessions" threads.

Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of outstanding autoharp players from whom I learn a lot but it gets a little pompus at times. Especially when I hear people say things like "A good stringed instrument player will never use a tuner."

[peeplj]

I was reading through this thread. I have some nice recorders, but I rarely get a chance to play them anymore. One of these days I'm going to have to get them out and see if I remember how to play them.

I noticed one post concerning the price of even entry-level wooden recorders being beyond even the most expensive whistles.

If you'd like really good recorders to learn on, check out the Zen-On Bressen model plastic recorders. These are not the plastic recorders you remember from unhappy childhood school experiences; they are well-tuned, have a fairly tight voicing and good resisitance, good volume, and a well-focused tone.

I will say that I like recorders just fine but I've never been able to make Irish music work on a recorder. That's not to say it's impossible, only that I can't do it.

--James

[MarkB]

I've still have the recorder I got in grade six, fifty two years ago!

But speaking of tinwhistle culture, what started out just cleaning the windway in my Burke Brass Pro D, turned into a major bio terrorism event. I can't remember the last time I had cleaned it.

It took twenty minutes just to get the darn thing apart and another thirty to get the wire bottle brush up the barrel, steam from the kettle helped somewhat but combined with CSR it did the trick.

Glunk as it ooozed and slithered out the barrel, a gooey lumpy mass of gunk, that smelt like stale Guinness and onion rings

Ugh! It was disgusting, alive with little things squirming around with foamy white heads and dark black worm like bodies, Guinness worms I think.

The O ring was fused to body, had to replace it! It took careful poking to chisel out the windway and I thought that the whistle had great backpressure, sheeeesh! And all the time I was thinking I was playing in the third octave with the force of breathe I was using.

Darn I should have recorder this on camera!

MarkB

[peeplj]

Mark, thank you so much for the most singuarly disgusting thing I'm likely to read all day!

/me bazooka-barfs

Dude, rinse those whistles out from time to time!!!

And never never Never NEVER NEEEVEEEER!!!! suck back!

--James

[jim stone]

Playing recorder gives you hairy finger pads.

[IDAwHOa]

Playing recorder gives you hairy finger pads.

I don't EVEN want to know what it does to your tongue and lips!!!

[Lost-in-North-Dakota]

Mark wrote:

>Glunk as it ooozed and slithered out the barrel, a gooey lumpy mass of gunk, that smelt like stale Guinness and onion rings <


Golly, I guess, then Yamaha has a point, when it says that a certain recorder model is "dishwasher safe"...just pop it in with a little Cascade every week or so...

Yeah, I always hated the trombone that I was forced to play in 7th grade. It was really old, and always smelled like barf*....I hated every minute I was forced to play. I refused to practice. Eventually I was forced to practice, and while I was practicing, my dog got run over by a car (I am not making this up). Our junior band, one hour per day, five days a week, for an entire semester...only practiced ONE SONG...Glow Worm. Everything about this trombone was a bad dream. I only write this to say that these memories of hatred of playing the trombone are still as fresh in my mind as they were ~40 years ago. We do children a great disservice when we make them play musical instruments they hate. No doubt there are some childhood recorder players here with even worse stories.


Lost


*I still have this trombone, and, even after 40 years of internal composting, it STILL smells like barf. I have written in my will that I want to be buried with this trombone, so that nobody else will ever have to play it again. It is a grudge that I am, literally, taking to my grave.

[Martin Milner]

Any instrument, if forced upon you as a child, can result in lasting indemnity in that child's memory. I wanted to love the piano and I wound up hating it for years...

Absolutely.

I was forced to play the violin as a child, and hated it so much I never touched one again until a couple of years ago. Luckily for me I had somehow retained all the basics, so it wasn't long beofre I was able to scrape out a few jigs and hornpipes.

Still can't do any reels though....

[Flyingcursor]

There are some aspects of whistle culture you've not been told.

While whistling has been around since the dawn of humanity, whistling has not always been viewed as it is today. As testified by early Greek writings many people whistled, apparently as a normal aspect of life, yet they did not consider themselves whistlers.
It wasn't until the early middle ages and the writings of St. Rek Or-Der that whistling began to be viewed as an abomination. Some documents indicate many whistlers were executed barbariously.

The repression of whistlers provided the impetus for whistlers to identify themselves by their whistling. A subculture sprang up which developed into that which we know today. Until the recent growth of tolerence, whistlers were usually forced to meet in secluded places such as quiet parks, beneath boardwalks, restrooms and seedy whistle houses.
How many remember seeing graffitti such as, "Bill plays a great low D. Be here at 10".

These meetings, beside being illegal, were dangerous as well. Whistle-Bashers often prowled the same grounds and would play recorders mercilessly.

During WWII whistling could get you 20 years in prison from the US military.

As of the last twenty years or so, the whistle community has made remarkable gains in acceptance. May whistlers now meet openly and live almost normal lives. Some corporations are providing active support for Whoa sufferers and their whistling partners.

Sadly, the election of the current administration has givin whistlephobes a false belief that they have carte-blanche right to attempt to push whistler rights back into the underbelly of society.


There are some good books about the whistle subculture.

John Retchy is one of the most notable authors. His books include;

City of Reels
Musical Outlaw
This Day's Jig
The Coming of the High F

[LeeMarsh]

A couple of years ago this issue came up. Here is a repost of my comments at the time, including a repost from earlier.

I think there is also a difference in the common associations of each instrument. Recorders are associated with a different approach to music, not exclusively but in the general mind.

Recorders are played in "Chambers",
Whistles are played in Pubs.

Recorders are for living rooms, studies, and music rooms,
Whistles are for kitchens, family rooms, and back porches.

Recorder music goes well with wine or brandy,
Whistle music goes well with Guiness, Jamesons, or Bushmills.

Recorders play waltzes and minuettes,
Whistles play hornpipes, jigs, and reels.

Recorders are played in consort,
Whistles are played in session.

Recorders are welcome at English Country Dances,
Whistles are welcome at Ceili's.

Neither are exclusive nor exclusionary of the other. It just the general perception of the instrument.

I think much of the banter is good natured and simply seeks to put the whistle in proper perspective in legions of instruments. However, there are some that think this or that instrument needs defending from time to time, protecting its place in the realm. So ...

With tongue firmly embedded in cheek, Lee repeats from an earlier post...

<b>From the topic: Why some instruments need special protection?</b>


You're ..(instrument).. 'as nothin' ta worry 'bout. Nor for dat madder does most other instrumen's; just dem recorder thingys.

Now not all dem recorders be snobs, I mean dat fella Wisely, ya know da Undisputed King of Whistle Journalism, 'e has some dat are well a'justed. O'course wit Dr Wisely bein' a psycho-logistic type, he'd be hav'ng dem teraputic sessions wit dem if dey weren't well a'justed. But...

A few of them thar recorders 'ave ben known to look down der noses at whistles. Making snide commen's 'bout whistles not being holy enough and dat whistles're made for dem players who don't have oppoasible thumbs. Now don't ya know, dem recorders have there innerds swabbed with sweet almonde oil and bore oil (sweet & boring), where as the common workin' class irish whistle's innerd's are dealin' with a mixture that be a good part Guinesss. (There's some dat say d'best part's d'Guiness).

Now Puttin' the two (recorder'n'whistle) in close proxam'y isn't usually a problem, I mean the Irish know how ta walk away from an insult when dey need ta. Ne'er-the-less, ever' now and den, the Guiness gets the better of them, (don't ya know its the same reason the irish don't rule the world according to the authorities). And a fine working class irish whistle might be tempted beyond all normal restraint to rearrange dat uppity recorders fipple, if ya know what I mean. Dat's why dem recorders need protecting.

Or at least dats how I heard it down-da-pub.

Even on recorders you can ...

[Will O'B]

That's some funny stuff, Flyingcursor. . .you truly have the gift.

Sadly, some of what you say about the repressed whistlers has some basis in fact. Back in a less enlightened time, many of the Irish were thrown into prison and even hanged for playing their native music or speaking their native tongue. Hence, the lyrics, "They're hangin men and women there for wearin o' the green."

Will O'Ban

[anniemcu]

Every group of people, even a virtual one as we have here, has a "culture." I have a question about tinwhistle culture.

How would you describe the attitude of tinwhistle players towards recorders and recorder players:

Open contempt? Slight annoyance? Bitter envy? Scorn? Mild bemusement?

The only reason I ask, is that there is a tinwhistle site, where if you click on a link, a video game opens up, where you are encouraged to destroy recorders. This suggests to me that there is an anti-recorder undertow to this culture that I need to appreciate.

I just want to make sure I understand. Thanks.


Lost

Like any other cross-section of humanity (yes, we do qualify, ... well... most of us do )... there are certain persistant prejudices... and choices by which people think they set themselves apart by actually setting others apart from them...

Truth be told, my only real objection to recorders is that I don't have a clue how to properly play one.
I have seen one I rather covet - a transparent lime green lucite one... I'd almost take it up just to have that. Of course, I'd rather have a whistle like it.

I have noted a rather virulent strain of anti-recorder sentiment on these pages - some obvious juest, some truly vehement... too bad.

I've seen heard incredible music played on them, though I couldn't if my life depended on it.

I think much of the aversion is related to school days, when one was placed into every little set of hands in the hopes that actual knowledge and love of music would naturally follow... fat chance! Be it recorder, saxaphone, fiddle, or nose flute, there are those who can, and those who should be shot for insiting on continuing to try... and those few who should be applauded... long and loud.

Just my $1.15...

[Will O'B]

Well put, Annie. BTW, I would call that at least a buck and a quarter's worth in my book.

Will O'Ban

[OutOfBreath]

Hmm, I haven't thought about record players in years. I used to have a very big collection of records, but most of them disappeared during a move, which was a shame because many of them will never be available on CD.

But, my record player disappeared during the same move so now I exclusively use CDs.