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Dale
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Post by Dale »

missy wrote:Dale - my comment of "monsters" was in reference to the two specific cases I talked about. Not to all that are on death row.
That's my point. Not only are there people on Death Row who are not monsters, there are innocent people there as well. Even if I concede that it's only a tiny minority, any possible "good" done by the death penalty (and I won't concede that there is any good done by the death penalty) would certainly be offset by the horror of an innocent person executed, or for that matter, spending years on death row before being exonerated.

The point, to me, Missy, is that you simply cannot justify keeping this horrible capital punishment system based on the idea that it is the "only way" to keep the worst of the worst off the streets. It's not the only way.

Dale
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Post by KDMARTINKY »

You know that this subject is very interesting to me and is one that I am strongly opinionated on (if you can believe that). 1) The scriptures state and eye for an eye, and then; 2) vegeance is mine saith the Lord.

One thing that has always bothered me regarding our criminal/judicial system is that if I go and kill a person in front of 100 witnesses and the gun is still smoking and in my hand. There is no doubt that I was the one who created the crime. Why in the heck give me a trial. I sould either get a State provided cell for the rest of my life or Death, but not a trail.

I do believe strongly that with the avg, cost of an inmate per year being $30,000, you are going to see a lot more death penalties being passed down.
I at one time had the idea of having the national guard (who at one time did very little on drill weekends) hold public firing squads on primetime TV. My thinking was if you made an execution real for people that it would curve the crime rate.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
Keith

Bionn dha insint ar sceal agus leagon deag ar amhran
There are two versions of every story and twelve of every song
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Post by jim stone »

KDMARTINKY wrote:You know that this subject is very interesting to me and is one that I am strongly opinionated on (if you can believe that). 1) The scriptures state and eye for an eye, and then; 2) vegeance is mine saith the Lord.

One thing that has always bothered me regarding our criminal/judicial system is that if I go and kill a person in front of 100 witnesses and the gun is still smoking and in my hand. There is no doubt that I was the one who created the crime. Why in the heck give me a trial. I sould either get a State provided cell for the rest of my life or Death, but not a trail.

I do believe strongly that with the avg, cost of an inmate per year being $30,000, you are going to see a lot more death penalties being passed down.
I at one time had the idea of having the national guard (who at one time did very little on drill weekends) hold public firing squads on primetime TV. My thinking was if you made an execution real for people that it would curve the crime rate.

Just some thoughts on the subject.
Some observations on both sides of the issue:


1. The reason there must be a trial is the 14th amendment due
process clause, which states that no state can deprive any
person of life, liberty or property without Due Process of law.

2. By the way, if you shot somebody before a hundred witnesses,
in most states you couldn't get the DP--because there needs
to be an aggravating circumstance, something that makes
the crime especially heinous, e.g. mulitple murder, torturing
people to death, murder committed during another felony
(e.g. armed robbery). This is a feature of virtually all state DP
statutes, which are in place to satisfy the Supreme Court.
In short, I could shoot just about any single individual I please, except
a police officer, and be safe from the DP. Notice that
the lady scheduled for execution was convicted of
killing three people.

4. The DP is considerably more expensive than life without
parole, largely because an automatic appeal is required
of every sentence and conviction (a large number of both
are reversed on appeal, in fact). In addition there is the
expense of maitaining a death row, etc. We could put a lot
more police on the streets by abolishing the DP
and dedicating the money to stopping crime. In
this way, the DP is dangerous to everybody.

5. The justificiation for the DP isn't that the murderer
is a monster. Timothy McVeigh wasn't a monster, nor
did the jury that sent him to his death think he was.
They actually rather liked him, persoanlly, in fact.
The chief justification for the DP is that some acts are
so heinous that justice requires death, like blowing
up 200 people in a terrorist attack, or dragging
a black man to death behind a truck. Otherwise we
treat the murderer so much more favorably than
he treated his victims that we become accomplices.

6. It makes some sense to be skeptical of the argument
given in behalf of this texas lady by the anti-death penalty
organization Dale quoted. There is the real possibility
that there is another side to the story (obviously there
is a real possibility they are spot on, too).
For one thing this woman was probably convicted at least
fifteen years ago, the triple murder happening
in 1987. Why all this activity now? A stay of execution
now so that the evidence can be considered?
What has happened in the last fifteen years?
Given the source, one does want to check deeper
before accepting their version.

P. S. Many states have, as an alternative sentence to the DP
in capitol cases, life without
parole. Louisiana has this, for instance. There's no mystery
as to how to get it. Legislatures pass such laws when
people insist that legislators do it.
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Post by mukade »

KDMARTINKY wrote:You know that this subject is very interesting to me and is one that I am strongly opinionated on (if you can believe that). 1) The scriptures state and eye for an eye, and then; 2) vegeance is mine saith the Lord.
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." Matthew 5:38-39

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Post by happyturkeyman »

mukade wrote:An acquaintance once said to me, "I'm a Christian, but I support the death penalty."

News just in: God has confirmed that there was no first amendment to the 'Thou shalt not kill" rule. It really does mean what it says.
Hypocrisy? Here in America? I thought we wiped that out around the time penicillin was invented!

And to find it in the place you least suspect - where religion and morals intersect with government! This is unprecidented!
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Post by mukade »

happyturkeyman wrote:
mukade wrote:An acquaintance once said to me, "I'm a Christian, but I support the death penalty."

News just in: God has confirmed that there was no first amendment to the 'Thou shalt not kill" rule. It really does mean what it says.
Hypocrisy? Here in America? I thought we wiped that out around the time penicillin was invented!

And to find it in the place you least suspect - where religion and morals intersect with government! This is unprecidented!
Actually, the friend was English :D.

Quoting the Bible in a debate about the death penalty is not a good idea. If you justify the death penalty using a religion, then do you have the right to execute people who are not believers of that religion?

"Eye for an Eye" is an Old Testament phrase. The Old Testament death penalty was a religious/sacrificial act to appease God. I am suprised at how many Christians quote the 'eye for an eye' line when they are supposed to follow the New Testament. Jesus' crucifixion removed the need for the sacrificial penalty as he sacrificed himself for the sins of all mankind. There is no precedent for a legal death penalty in the Bible.

I think Dale's reasoning makes most sense. There are people on death row who have no right to walk free, but someone who has been there for twenty years is not the same person who committed the crime.

Think about it. Were you the same person twenty years ago? Probably not.

Mukade
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Post by Jay-eye »

mukade wrote: Jesus' crucifixion removed the need for the sacrificial penalty as he sacrificed himself for the sins of all mankind.
Mukade
'Repentance' carries with it all the meaning of 'being sorry enough not to do it again' and 'doing a u-turn' and deciding to 'go God's way not my way' but it's not the same as regret or remorse. And how do you tell when someone GENUINELY is repentant and won't commit the same crime again?

It's a flippant truism: 'executed killers don't re-offend' but what right have we to take another's life?

Apart from the dodgy ethics of legalized murder in the name of 'common good' I feel there are too many incorrect judgements for such a 'final solution' to be an acceptable part of the legal system.

I don't have any easy answers so I'll just carry on pretending it's nothing to do with me. Thanks for giving me pause for thought though Dale.

j.i.
Tóg go bog é, dude.....

j.i.
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Post by happyturkeyman »

mukade wrote:
happyturkeyman wrote:
mukade wrote:An acquaintance once said to me, "I'm a Christian, but I support the death penalty."

News just in: God has confirmed that there was no first amendment to the 'Thou shalt not kill" rule. It really does mean what it says.
Hypocrisy? Here in America? I thought we wiped that out around the time penicillin was invented!

And to find it in the place you least suspect - where religion and morals intersect with government! This is unprecidented!
Actually, the friend was English :D.

Quoting the Bible in a debate about the death penalty is not a good idea. If you justify the death penalty using a religion, then do you have the right to execute people who are not believers of that religion?

"Eye for an Eye" is an Old Testament phrase. The Old Testament death penalty was a religious/sacrificial act to appease God. I am suprised at how many Christians quote the 'eye for an eye' line when they are supposed to follow the New Testament. Jesus' crucifixion removed the need for the sacrificial penalty as he sacrificed himself for the sins of all mankind. There is no precedent for a legal death penalty in the Bible.

I think Dale's reasoning makes most sense. There are people on death row who have no right to walk free, but someone who has been there for twenty years is not the same person who committed the crime.

Think about it. Were you the same person twenty years ago? Probably not.

Mukade
Apologies. I wasn't really even referring to your quote spefically, might as well just have left it out. oh well.

and back to unproductive, mean-spirited, sarcastic cynicism:

You mean to tell me that there are people in the world who both practice AND preach a religion while being grossly undereducated in it?
Next thing you know we'll have people all over the world who grossly misconstrue a religion for their own gain! And others will go along with it (and maybe even preach it) due to their own lack of education! Wow, it sure is a good thing we don't have violent, religious extremests or manipulative politicians around to screw the world up.

Alright, now for some random, more productive thoughts.

Preventing crime choice 1) cure a criminal
Preventing crime choice 2) detain/kill/cripple/whatever it takes to foricbly stop future crimes

If a murderer is set free and kills again, isn't the death of an innocent less morally acceptable than the death of a killer?

If a murderer is, instead, truely convicted for life and shut away in jail, where he is than raped many times, how acceptable is that?

If a murderer gets a true life sentence - that is locked up in (presumably) a max security prison until death, isn't that essentially sentencing someone to die using time as a means of execution?

--on the cure side of things--

How can you tell (for sure) when a criminal is cured?

Say you're not sure whether Joe the killer is cured or not. Do you lock them up or let them go?

How about you go about it the logical way... compile data on Joe spefically and cross-reference with data from similar criminals. There could be a panel of actuary-type people who could consult a panel of psychologists to put a number on the chance Joe will kill again. At what chance do you let him go? obviously if it were 100 you would further imprison him. If it were 0 you would let him free. but what if its between those two, like 33%? The only step left for the actuaries is to assign a value to both the life of the killer and the life of the potential victim. Times 33% by the value of life lost if the average victim is killed, and 66% by the average value of life lost by imprisoning a killer for the rest of his life. Obviously the average victim is younger, so already the rest of the killers life is worth less. And does he get points taken off for being a murderer too? Let the actuaries decide. Does this sound morally right yet?

As for me, even if prisons were moderately pleasant places, I would rather get the death penalty than a life sentence.

[/foodforthought]
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Post by peeplj »

The death sentence is a subject that I can see both sides of, but do have a definite opinion about.

Unfortunately, I do think that from time to time innocent people wind up on death row, and there is no way to morally justify killing an innocent person. We don't live in a concensus reality; just because 12 people can be convinced in a courtroom that someone committed a crime doesn't mean that they in reality actually did.

Also, Texas has a really bad reputation for its overly enthusiastic use of the death penalty. It would be much less easy to criticize their system if they only executed a few people every decade or so; however, they've got a nice little execution-by-the-number assembly line going.

All of that having been said, I do believe the death penality is sometimes the only way society can be protected. I think the death penallty has no value as a deterrent, so I don't think the deterrence argument holds much water. But the sad truth is there are people who, if ever released will kill again and again until recaptured. We have never yet made a prison that cannot be escaped from, and an argument could be made that in not taking the life of such a person we become an unwilling partner in their future murders.

If a dog catches rabies, it's not the dog's fault. But you still have to put the dog down.

There are times you have to put a killer down, as well, no matter what horrible circumstances may have contributed to his crime.

But I don't approve of the death penality as used in Texas. I certainly don't approve of it as a crime deterrent because criminals aren't typically people with much imagination or forthought, both of which are required at least in small measure if any kind of deterrent is to work.

--James
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Post by Wombat »

jim stone wrote:
6. It makes some sense to be skeptical of the argument
given in behalf of this texas lady by the anti-death penalty
organization Dale quoted. There is the real possibility
that there is another side to the story (obviously there
is a real possibility they are spot on, too).
For one thing this woman was probably convicted at least
fifteen years ago, the triple murder happening
in 1987. Why all this activity now? A stay of execution
now so that the evidence can be considered?
What has happened in the last fifteen years?
Given the source, one does want to check deeper
before accepting their version.
This looks like a reason, the only one I've noticed so far, for someone who supports the death penalty not to be outraged by this Texas case. So, is it really a good reason?

If you actually have evidence, I mean concrete evidence, that the group concerned are generally unreliable, then that would be a serious reason to be sceptical. Alternatively, if, using evidence available in this case, you could build up a defense of the way the Texas judicial system handled this case, that too would be worth our consideration.

As it stands, though, merely pointing out the possibility that there could be another side to the story is true but vacuous. Stripped of gratuitous bias, it simply boils down to the platitude that legal reasoning is inductive so, for all we know, there could be another side to the story no matter how much we've heard so far. That is true but, contrary to the way in which you've presented it here, it doesn't point in either direction. New evidence could support the conviction, discredit it, or leave us roughly where we are now.

This form of argument closely resembles the vacuous kind of slippery-slope argument to the conclusion that, however improbable, something bad 'might' happen if we act in a certain way. Absent detailed evidence, a course of action could lead to better, to worse or to much the same. Same with not acting. No course of action (or inaction) is privileged in this kind of speculation. Neither is any verdict privileged by pointing out the possibility that there might be more to the story without telling us precisely what.

In inductive arguments, we make up our minds on the basis of the evidence available to us. We can't hope for better than proof 'beyond reasonable doubt' and often can't do better than proof 'on the balance of the probabilities. The fact that there might be more evidence, as yet unknown, isn't itself evidence pointing in one direction rather than another. It is just a platitude about the form of reasoning we are using.
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Post by jim stone »

This story from the Chicago Tribune pretty
well sums up the problem with the DP, IMO.
Killing people needs justification, obviously.
The DP cannot be justified on the ground that
it is needed to incapacitate (for we can
incapacitate without killing), nor on the ground
that it's a deterrent (because there is no evidence
that it deters), nor on the ground that it is
economical (because it is more expensive than
life without parole--due to automatic appeals, etc;
nor should we kill people to economize). The
sole viable justification is that, on grounds of justice,
the DP is required because some crimes are
so heinous that death is the only appropriate legal and moral
response. The difficulty for this justification is that
the DP involves the intolerable risk of executing
the innocent; hence it perpetrates a greater
injustice than it remedies--even if vicious murderers
deserve to die for their crimes.

As Lafayette said: 'Until I have the foresight of God,
I will continue to oppose the death penalty.'

Bite-mark verdict faces new scrutiny

Mon Nov 29, 9:40 AM ET
[Add to My Yahoo!] Top Stories - Chicago Tribune

By Flynn McRoberts Tribune staff reporter

Thelma Younkin used an oxygen tube to help her breathe. Her killer used it as a murder weapon.

In November 1991, the frail, 65-year-old Younkin was strangled with the tube, bitten and raped in her room at the Post Park Motel along a grim stretch of this desert town.

A fellow resident of the low-budget motel, Bobby Lee Tankersley, was convicted and sent to Arizona's Death Row for the attack, based largely on the testimony of a forensic dentist who said he had matched Tankersley's teeth to bite marks on Younkin's body.

But on Monday, the same judge who sentenced Tankersley to death will hold a hearing that promises to showcase the problems of forensic science in America's courts, from the legacy of discredited experts to new DNA tests exposing the questionable science behind many other disciplines, including bite-mark comparison.

Tankersley was granted Monday's hearing largely because the forensic dentist who was key to his conviction also was at the center of perhaps the nation's most noted case of mistaken bite-mark testimony.

Dr. Raymond Rawson's opinion helped send an innocent man, Ray Krone, to Arizona's Death Row. At Krone's 1992 trial, Rawson said bite marks on a murdered Phoenix cocktail waitress were "a very good match" to Krone's teeth. Rawson also testified during Krone's 1996 retrial that his teeth were "a scientific match" to a spotty pattern of blood on the victim's bra.

Krone, a former postal worker, spent more than a decade in prison before DNA testing proved Rawson wrong, connecting another man to the murder and exonerating Krone. Just last week, Krone, who had been dubbed "the snaggletooth killer," had his teeth redone courtesy of the ABC television show "Extreme Makeover," according to his attorney, Christopher Plourd, who is advising Tankersley's lawyers.

Increasingly, other forensic dentists are questioning whether such definitive declarations can be made about bite marks left in skin, let alone based on blood patterns on clothing.

State prosecutors were so concerned about the similarities in Rawson's testimony at the two men's murder trials that on the day Krone walked free in April 2002, they asked the Arizona Supreme Court to order new DNA tests on evidence from the Tankersley case.

The results of those tests will be central at the hearing scheduled for Monday in the courtroom of Yuma County Superior Court Judge Thomas Thode. But they are more ambiguous than the tests that exonerated Krone by matching another man who is now scheduled to stand trial next year.

Tankersley's attorneys plan to argue that the tests in his case--on everything from the oxygen tubing used to choke Younkin to swabs of the marks left on her body--exclude Tankersley and reveal the genetic profile of someone else.

Defense's proposition

"We have a clear profile from a male in many of the samples that's not Tankersley," said attorney Jennifer Sparks, who is representing him. "That's kind of hard to explain if you're the state."

Prosecutors, however, contend that those same tests actually provide more convincing proof of Tankersley's guilt. They also say the genetic evidence might have been contaminated during the handling of Younkin's body after the killing.

According to the Arizona Department of Corrections, Younkin's grandson owed Tankersley, who was 39 at the time of the murder, money for drugs, and Tankersley had told Younkin's daughter before the murder that the grandson would "live to regret it" if he did not meet with him.

"If the evidence was such that it was clear that Tankersley didn't do it, then we wouldn't be having this hearing," said John Todd, the assistant Arizona attorney general who initially asked for the new testing. "But that's not the case. In the [state] criminalist's view, in fact, it looks like it's more certain that he is the guy."

The DNA evidence in question is open to interpretation because some of the samples indicate multiple genetic profiles. But the test results weren't complete enough, according to Tankersley's lawyers, to run through FBI (news - web sites) databases that in theory could connect Younkin's murder to someone else.

Even Todd acknowledged that "with mixed samples, it's very difficult to be absolutely conclusive" about including a suspect.

When Tankersley was put on trial in 1993, Dr. Ed Blake, a prominent DNA analyst, testified that the DNA profile taken from a hair found in the sink of Younkin's motel room was consistent with Tankersley's genetic profile but also found in about 4 percent of the Caucasian population.

While not conceding the hair is Tankersley's, his appellate attorneys have downplayed its significance because he knew Younkin and lived in the same motel.

That left the state with bite-mark testimony from Rawson. He used a video presentation, including fade-in and fade-out techniques, to convince jurors that all of the marks on Younkin's body matched Tankersley's teeth.

But according to the motion to exonerate filed last month by Tankersley's lawyers, the state's other expert at trial, Dr. Norman Sperber, "could not identify any individual characteristics of teeth whatsoever in the marks on the neck, ear, chin, and jaw area. The techniques of Dr. Rawson were questionable, his video presentation misleading, and his conclusions highly dubious"

Rawson could not be reached for comment. His assistant, Linda Chapman, said that he had retired in March from doing forensic dentistry and that "he doesn't want to discuss the case."

A prominent Nevada state legislator as well as a dentist, Rawson lost in the Republican primary this year partly, some observers say, because of news coverage of his role in the Krone case.

In the Tankersley trial, the defense did not present a dental expert to refute Rawson.

The state made his bite-mark testimony central to its closing argument.

"This defendant, in essence, signed his name to the body of his victim," prosecutor Mary White told the jury.

When Thode sentenced Tankersley to death in May 1994, he cited the bite marks as evidence that the crime was heinous and depraved.

Since then, however, other forensic dentists working with the defense have challenged Rawson's testimony in the case. Among them are Dr. Richard Souviron, the chief forensic odontologist for the Miami-Dade County medical examiner's office. Souviron, who has testified for prosecutors and defense attorneys in other cases, questioned whether all the marks on Younkin's body were bite marks.

"She had a human bite mark on her left breast," Souviron said. But "Dr. Rawson came up with a bite mark on the chin and the right breast," among other places. "They were bruises. They definitely, in my opinion, were not bite marks."

Expert is doubtful

Another odontologist, Dr. Michael Bowers, who served on the examination and credentials committee of the American Board of Forensic Odontology, submitted an affidavit for Tankersley's defense. In it, he reiterated his skepticism about the entire discipline of bite-mark comparison.

"The serious deficiencies of the `science' of bite marks make its use as an identifier of a single perpetrator a very dangerous proposition," Bowers wrote.

Noting the disagreement between Sperber and Rawson, Bowers added, "The divergence of opinion between the state's own dental experts in Tankersley is another anecdotal indicator of [the] weak reliability and foundation of bite-mark identification."

As part of a recent series on forensic science in the courtroom, the Tribune examined 154 criminal cases involving bite-mark evidence, mostly murders and rapes, that reached appeals courts in state and federal jurisdictions around the country. In more than a quarter of those cases, the prosecution and defense offered forensic dentists who gave diametrically opposed opinions.

The discrediting of Rawson's testimony in the Krone case is one of numerous instances in which leading practitioners of bite-mark comparison have erred.

Monday's hearing on the Tankersley case, however, is expected to focus less on the marks left on Younkin's body than the DNA evidence swabbed from them.

Since Blake's testimony in Tankersley's trial, DNA technology has advanced greatly. After Krone's exoneration, more sophisticated tests were performed on swabs taken from marks on Younkin's body, fingernail clippings from her hands, the oxygen tubing and cigarette butts recovered from the crime scene.

Just what those tests yielded is a matter of dispute. There will be at least three interpretations--from an Arizona Department of Public Safety analyst, private lab Orchid Cellmark and an expert appointed by the court for Tankersley.

They have varying degrees of disagreement on whether the tests help or hurt his argument that he is innocent.

One thing that is not in dispute: DNA from at least three people was found on the oxygen tubing--the murder weapon--but Tankersley's genetic profile isn't among them.

"If Mr. Tankersley was the true perpetrator of this crime, then his DNA should have been found on the murder weapon," his attorneys wrote in their motion to exonerate.

But Todd, the assistant attorney general, noted that Cellmark concluded that Tankersley could not be excluded as a possible source of DNA found in alleged bite wounds to Younkin's face and right breast.

Hope for retrial

After this week's hearing, which is expected to last a couple of days, the judge will hold a hearing Dec. 13 to give the state a chance to respond. Tankersley is hoping for a new trial, if not outright exoneration.

Back at the Post Park, doubts linger over whether he was responsible for Younkin's rape and murder. The motel and the adjacent Desert Sands are all that are left of the long skid row of places that attracted many transients around the time she was killed.

Her former home, No. 9, is one of a dozen stucco and cinder-block rooms filled mostly with older residents on disability who pay by the month. Back in 1991, anybody with a little cash could have a room for $15 or $20 a night.

"There was a bunch of speed freaks around here, especially back then," recalled Tom Poston, a retired strawberry picker and carnival worker who said he moved out of the Post Park a few months before Younkin was killed but has since returned. "It could've been anybody."
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curioso
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Post by curioso »

I am a Texan. I am also a white conservative...and a (sigh) mediocre whistle player.

Reading the comments so far, I guess that makes me blood-thirsty, red-necked, bigoted, ignorant, fanatically religious, or fill in the blank with your favorite "Texan" sterotype... Rather than address all the stereotypes, let me tell you some of what this Texan believes in.

I support the death penalty... in cases where there is no doubt! If in doubt, I'd just like to jail 'em forever. I'd like to change the existing let 'em out in 20 years laws, and nobody should spend decades on death row through infinite appeals. But there are too many lawyers in the legislature to get trial/appeal reform through, and we don't have referendum rights here.

I don't support the ultimate penalty for "vengance" or "deterrent" reasons. It's for "Justice"...Justice for the innocent victims and their families, friends, and those forever changed by a senseless act of violence. I also believe Justice should be blind -- to race, wealth, appearance, and everything else. Regretably humans and jury's are far too influenced by these differences.

I don't have much sympathy for cold-blooded killers, whoever they are.

I support Row vs Wade. I support adoption as an alternative. I also believe partial birth abortion is heinous. I don't believe in killing fetuses for research. I also support the right of the terminally ill to painlessly terminate their own lives if they see fit to end it. If you're wondering, Texas administers the death penalty by lethal injection.

Having evaluated the facts in the Newton case from internet & news reports (somewhat distorted by Dale's reference), I felt some evidence needed verification. I typed my own wording in the space provided on Dale's link and emailed in support of a 120 day review of evidence. It won't hurt to take another look. Sorry if that doesn't match your expectations...

Maybe being from Texas will help influence the Review Board...
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Post by Jerry Freeman »

curioso wrote:I am a Texan. I am also a white conservative...and a (sigh) mediocre whistle player.

Reading the comments so far, I guess that makes me blood-thirsty, red-necked, bigoted, ignorant, fanatically religious ...
Some of my best friends are mediocre whistle players. Although comments that have been posted about mediocre whistle players have not been uniformly favorable, I think you're being too critical.

Best wishes,
Jerry
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Post by Wombat »

curioso wrote:I am a Texan. I am also a white conservative...and a (sigh) mediocre whistle player.

Reading the comments so far, I guess that makes me blood-thirsty, red-necked, bigoted, ignorant, fanatically religious, or fill in the blank with your favorite "Texan" sterotype... Rather than address all the stereotypes, let me tell you some of what this Texan believes in.

I support the death penalty... in cases where there is no doubt! If in doubt, I'd just like to jail 'em forever. I'd like to change the existing let 'em out in 20 years laws, and nobody should spend decades on death row through infinite appeals. But there are too many lawyers in the legislature to get trial/appeal reform through, and we don't have referendum rights here.
Steady on. Have a closer look at what people were really saying. I know one post explicitly tars Texans with that brush but I can't see it elsewhere, at least that wasn't how I read the posts earlier.

I, for one, asked how Texans who believe in the death penalty could be happy with a case like the one Dale cited precisely because I don't want to mindlessly accept the stereotypes. It took about five days for your post to appear and I'd assume there are many more supporters of the death penalty on a board this size. (Apart form you, only Missy responded.)

Thanks for joining in. Your position looks to me a bit like the one Missy was outlining and your reason for supporting the death penalty looks like the one I seem to remember her giving. So my next question is this: if the legislature isn't giving you the laws and protocols you want, why don't you vote them out?
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Post by Flyingcursor »

Whether there is a death penalty or not is moot. Something needs to be done to remove the compunction to commit the crimes to begin with. Once someone is murdered, they are dead and no life in prison or execution will bring back the victim or erase the grief of the loved ones. I know because my best friend was murdered and I'll bet there are others on this board as well.

The real question should quit focusing on what to do after the fact and look at what is done before.
What motivates people NOT to commit crimes? What is the greatest motivating factor of most life forms besides parental instinct? Conscience? I don't see evidence to support that one. Fear? Clearly the fear of prison is no deterrent. Pain? We wouldn't want to hurt a psycho killer now would we?

I think the whole debate is pointless since it doesn't focus on prevention.
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