FREE FROM SERPENT MUSIC - A THANK YOU

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Azalin
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Post by Azalin »

I just had another thought (while I was supposed to be working!). The reason why I think it is very legit to criticize some other people's playing is because playing music can be like smoking. What you do affect other people around you. If you go on drinking as much as you want, I don't give a darn, but if you smoke in my face, I'll be pissed off because I think you lack respect.

This thing about "I'll do what I want, this is music after all" is valid as long as you play at home, but when you play with other people, one should try to understand what's going on, who you might be disturbing, etc, unless you really don't care (like many smokers do, but not all). Things like "whistle isnt only for ITM" are okay with me, as long as you play at home. If you want to sit down with ITM musicians, please make the effort to adapt to them, and not them adapt to you.

So, if you're someone who doesnt realize your smoke might affect other people around you, or if you're someone who knows but says "It's my life, I can do what I want", chances are you'll do the same in a session. If you're someone who will smoke in areas where there's nobody, and ask before smoking around someone, etc, chances are you're someone who won't play in a session when you're not supposed to. It's all about human nature and this is the reason why I jump the roof all the time, because I feel like so many people lack the respect and the will to understand what they're trying to get into and in what way they might be affecting people along the way.

Oh my, enough of this :-)
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Azalin
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Post by Azalin »

colomon wrote:Azalin, I think you're a bit off there. A big component of learning to be a good musician is playing together with musicians who are better than you are. In Irish traditional music, this takes the form of a session at least as often as a it does lessons. All those of us who are not masters frequently play with our betters.

A good session has room for players of all talent levels -- as long as they show respect to good session etiquette and the other players.

It might have been better to ask Mary if she minded your joining her. I know my friends have sessioned with her before. If my past experience is any guide, sometime next week Liz Carroll is likely to join a session you're playing at. Will you get up and leave?
I actually agree with everything you said, as sessions after all were created for social reasons, being able to chat wth your neighbor, etc. But I lack good music in my town, and I'm being extreme in my way of thinking. Anyway, as I keep on telling a friend, I'm almost 30, until then I can afford being a fool, at thirty I'll have to start being wise ;-)
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colomon
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Tell us something.: Whistle player, aspiring C#/D accordion and flute player, and aspiring tunesmith. Particularly interested in the music of South Sligo and Newfoundland. Inspired by the music of Peter Horan, Fred Finn, Rufus Guinchard, Emile Benoit, and Liz Carroll.

I've got some compositions up at http://www.harmonyware.com/tunes/SolsTunes.html
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Post by colomon »

Azalin wrote:But I lack good music in my town, and I'm being extreme in my way of thinking.
Really? When we hung out with Richard Forest a bit this spring, he complained that almost all (all but one?) the Montreal sessions were Irish sessions. (Of course, we played a few tunes with him -- all Irish, oddly enough, even though I know we have a number of (much more interesting) Canadian tunes in common as well.)
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moxy
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Post by moxy »

OK, I'm somewhat of a beginner (perhaps slightly more advanced than the average beginner) and have been attending the same sessions as Az. I agree with him, especially after having been to East Durham for a week and hearing some truly decent session work. There is a lack of decent sessions (at least in my opinion) in Montreal. (It's not to say there is nothing here for anybody, there's plenty, if they're what you like - but they're not exactly what I'm looking for).

At 30, you become a zombie... I've been a zombie for 5 years, but I haven't even begun to realize it!!

Just my two cents, as Az and I have discussed this quite a bit in the last few weeks, he'll know where I'm coming from - I would love to play with musicians who are always slightly (or greatly) better than me, and I would definitely display the respect I feel they deserve by sitting out if I really can't make my way through a tune. Gotta listen lots at first, I know it's true, and yes, once in a while, I'll play along (and it might be crap) but I'll notice it's crap after 10 seconds, and I'll put down my whistle to get into the music once again. Cause I love it sooooo much....

I mean, I learn so much by playing with the greats!! (about the music, I mean...)
plagon2000
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Post by plagon2000 »

My dear old Granny used to say, "if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all"
I would like to say "Thank you Bill!". Now I can play the Kesh Jig. I learned it off his website! Just tried it out to see if I could and I suppose my learning style is suited to his teaching style. I'll keep an ear out for other people playing it in the future and will no doubt improve , but Bill's site got me past that big hump of the dots on a page which meant nothing to me at all. Thanks Bill.
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Post by amar »

didn't moxy used to have babe-avatar?
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Jeff Guevin
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Post by Jeff Guevin »

plagon2000 wrote:My dear old Granny used to say, "if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all"
I would like to say "Thank you Bill!". Now I can play the Kesh Jig. I learned it off his website! Just tried it out to see if I could and I suppose my learning style is suited to his teaching style. I'll keep an ear out for other people playing it in the future and will no doubt improve , but Bill's site got me past that big hump of the dots on a page which meant nothing to me at all. Thanks Bill.
Be sure to post a sound clip so we can all discuss. :twisted:
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Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

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Post by Nanohedron »

Jeff Guevin wrote:
plagon2000 wrote:My dear old Granny used to say, "if you can't say something nice, say nothing at all"
I would like to say "Thank you Bill!". Now I can play the Kesh Jig. I learned it off his website! Just tried it out to see if I could and I suppose my learning style is suited to his teaching style. I'll keep an ear out for other people playing it in the future and will no doubt improve , but Bill's site got me past that big hump of the dots on a page which meant nothing to me at all. Thanks Bill.
Be sure to post a sound clip so we can all discuss. :twisted:
Just don't forget your flameproof pants.
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Azalin
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Post by Azalin »

moxy wrote:I mean, I learn so much by playing with the greats!! (about the music, I mean...)
Heeehehehe....
Cayden

Post by Cayden »

PLagon 200, I have a tape of a lecture Seamus ENnis gave during the 1975 WIllie clancy Summer School.
In it he talks about how to play music. He gives examples 'Now you hear people play like this...', playing it 'straight'and then he commences to play the tuen his own way 'but this is how the tune really does it..'.

When first I heard that it was an utter shock hearing the differrence between the two. I sent the clip to some boardmembers recently and know it left them baffled for days, figuring what the hell he did to make the tune into such beautiful music.

They learned from it that the tune is not a straight forward job, that only from hearing (as Ennis put it himself) a good player playing, because he has that little something that makes the music spark.

Exactly the point I made in my first post: you learned to play the Kesh jig like Bill plays it. aNd there's exactly the damage he and any mediocre tooter who post clips as a tutorial is doing.

(edited for typo correction and a slight bit of clarification)
Last edited by Cayden on Tue Jul 27, 2004 1:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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anniemcu
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Post by anniemcu »

Azalin wrote:
anniemcu wrote:You know, by *your* standards', most people are bad players. So, should they not participate at sessions? Is it only the perfect who are allowed to play in public? Thank goodness no. If it is a tin whistler's competition, certainly the best of the best should come out and the rest should step back and listen and watch.
I personnaly believe that you should be playing in a session where most players are about your level. I would personally never join a session where Mary Bergin is sitting, because I would destroy the wonderful, advanced, thoughtful, tasty phrasing she has, and other players of her skills and experience has. I am smart enough to understand this, and to understand that sometimes one should listen and learn. I also believe that if you can't bring something to a session, you'd better not play. That's harsh, but that's the way I feel it.

I will also be very pissed of is some beginner or average player starts playing in a session where I'm playing, where the subtle stuff I'm trying to put in the music is drowned under some else's unskilled playing. Two weeks ago there was a couple of times I was playing with awesome musicians, and I just went in the zone. I would completely forget about who I was, where I was, I could close my eyes and feel the music through me, feel the music around me, feel the love for the music and the joy, I would play and do incredible stuff I never did before, I'd feel so close to the other musicians in the room. At one point, some newbie sat down and started playing, and the feeling I had just blew up, and we all looked at each other in puzzlement. Snobbish? Maybe. In love with well played ITM music? More likely.

You can call me snobbish for being that way, but if you had seen but I have seen, sessions with top players being destroyed by beginners, and people who were listening just being pissed off and turning off their microphone and leaving the session, you'd unserstand.
Obviously, we value different things.

I *would* join that session, if I weren't intruding (I'd ask). and I'd do my best at the time, coming away exhilerated at best, embarressed at worst, but richer either way.

I welcome newbies, our session welcomes them. We don't require 'top billing' status for anyone - even the best of us. Sometimes it's incredible, sometimes it's mediocre. .. it's almost always fun and we learn *with* eachother.

Now, if I, or any other member of the group was looking to focus entirely on becoming the best in the genre, we'd either be somewhere else, or working hard to learn enough to get somewhere else... that's a different focus all together.

I can tell you that I've met a good number of top players in several catagories through the years, and very few of them are pompus or arrogant, (those that were, usually matured out of it asthey grew up). They are as likely to take a few minutes with a newbie as not, and they know that they didn't get there by *only* playing with people who were lots better than they were. They did when they got the chance, you bet, but they don't all forget where they come from. I've been told by quite a few people, better by far than I, that 'hey, I was where you are once'... and that is more encouraging than 'don't bother kid, you'll never be good enough', or 'go away, you're not good enough for us'.

And yes, I have had those etherial moments when everything clicks and heaven itself drifts down... we can't hold it for long, and, IMHO, we don't have the right to tell others they can't have any of it.

This is like arguing religion... 'my way is the only right way'... thank goodness that has never floated well, or we wouldn't have anything more than clones of previous players, and we'd all still be playing rocks and sticks...
anniemcu
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anniemcu
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Post by anniemcu »

Peter Laban wrote:PLagon 200, I have a tape of a lecture Seamus ENnis gave during the 1975 WIllie clancy Summer School.
In it he talks about how to play music. He gives examples 'Now you hear people play like this...', playing it 'straight'and then he commences to play the tuen his own way 'but this is how the tune really does it..'.

When first I heard that it was an utter shock hearing the differrence between the two. I sent the clip to some boardmembers recently and know it left them baffled for days, figuring what the hell he did to make the tune into such beautiful music.

They learned from it that the tune is not a straight forward job, that only from hearing (as Ennis put it himself) a good player playing, because he has that little something that makes the music spark.

Exactly the point I made in my first post: you learned to play the Kesh jig like Bill plays it. aNd there's exactly the damage he and any mediocre tooter who post clips as a tutorial is doing.

(edited for typo correction and a slight bit of clarification)
Hmmm... you look at it as damage, we look at it as a stepping stone... And now, having learned a basic version from a basic sourse, the player is free to pay more attention to the better players, without getting lost trying to figure out where the basic tune is in amongst all the style and decoration... first things first works well, you know.
anniemcu
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"You are what you do, not what you claim to believe." -Gene A. Statler
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"Olé to you, none-the-less!" - Elizabeth Gilbert
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plagon2000
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Post by plagon2000 »

[quote="Jeff Guevin
Be sure to post a sound clip so we can all discuss. :twisted:[/quote]
Early days yet Jeff! Learning is an ongoing thing. My dear old Granny used to say, "you have to crawl before you can walk" and I'm just onto my feet with the Kesh Jig, ( did I say thanks to Bill?), but I've a lot of practice to go before its really fluent in me, let alone to anyone elses ear.
Cayden

Post by Cayden »

Annie MCu I don't agree with you (that was an obvious one if ever there was), I maintain that if you learn a tune without the very basic phrasing and rhythm in order it's inmensely hard to unlearn and turn it right , believe me I've been there. it can so easily be avoided by listening to decent playing.
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Post by Bloomfield »

anniemcu wrote: Hmmm... you look at it as damage, we look at it as a stepping stone... And now, having learned a basic version from a basic sourse, the player is free to pay more attention to the better players, without getting lost trying to figure out where the basic tune is in amongst all the style and decoration... first things first works well, you know.
Bill Ochs told me once "practice doesn't make perfect: it makes permanent" and I don't think he meant it as encouragement. He meant it as a warning.
/Bloomfield
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