Hole spacing on low D whistle vs. keyless D flute

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:11 pm

Ooops! I must have been channelling another thread. I'm sure i saw a link to an instrument in the DCM collection that was a double flageolet to which someone added a third tube, making it a triple. Sorry.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:01 pm

Quite right Glauber.
The puzzle was why we were being treated to all the stuff about double and triple flageolets.

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:48 pm

I'm beginning to draw a picture. Any fans of The Simpsons out there?

"R&R #1347, worst patent head ever."

Oop, now I suppose I started an argument about whether there was a #1347, if it has a patent head, and what Chris Wilkes would say about it. I'll take responsibility if this thread becomes engulfed in flames.

Cheers,
Aaron

Dominic Allan · Post by **Dominic Allan** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:09 pm

is that the guy who runs a shop called "Andrew's Dungeon"?

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:11 pm

The puzzle was why we were being treated to all the stuff about double and triple flageolets.

Amazing (and sad) that you were puzzled!
The photo links ALL show side-blown flageolets (who the heck cares that they are doubles or triples.) The operative was to show how the mouthpiece (and in better chosen photos, I'd say) was constructed, as the discussion was quite on topic of sideblown instruments.
Didn't mean to confuse you with all that! But the idiocy of triple flageolets was clear in the mind-puzzler of how to hold and play such a monstrosity. Thankfully they are little used today.

whether there was a #1347, if it has a patent head, and what Chris Wilkes would say about it.

Nope, no argument, Aaron.
Yes, there was a #1347 (although not yet found) and it was indeed Rudall & Rose.
Chances are it was not originally with Patent Head, as that was patented in 1832 and #1347 was made c.1831.
And only Knucklehead Smiff seems to say what the master flutemaker would say. Question is, whose thoughts are they really?

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:09 pm

The idiots of the 19th century understood well enough how to play "such monstrosities ". It is the idiots of the 21st century who don't.
The suggestion was that whistle players might find the " flute " position more comfortable. The fact that the problem was dealt with 200 years ago should be understood by the brighter members of the forum, or at least interest them. I expect that they already knew what the solution then produced - a side blown whistle- actually looks like.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:16 pm

True enough.
Too bad the end result of a side-blown whistle is currently either a toy or a pile of kindling. Neat idea. Poor execution.
Use a Pan pipe.....it's easier!

You can rove from the "slip on" mouthpiece that Wheatstone invented to allow non-flute players to play....
to the Giorgi flutes (with blow hole perpendicular to the flute) that allow flute players to hold the flute vertically as a whistle (or flageolet if you like).

All sorts of concoctions.....then and now....to help people try to play without pain (or with convenience).

Surely the idiots of today (and I'm happy to count myself among them just for your benefit) must realize that "if it ain't around no more, it must not have been worth a sheet in the first place, boss."

Compared to flute makers, how many flageolet makers of that style or type are there today (and i don't mean the French bean)?
And in case you wondered, all, the flageolet was a French invention (c.1581).
Why did it die off? I love this encyclopedia's take on it:
>The instrument retained its popularity until the beginning of the 19th century, when Bainbridge constructed double and triple flageolets.<<

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:51 am

The very first of your many illustrations shows an end blown instrument, as have been all the triple flageolets I have handled. What happened to the truth down there ?

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:29 am

The very first of your many illustrations shows an end blown instrument, as have been all the triple flageolets I have handled. What happened to the truth down there ?

Sorry to have annoyed you, dear Andrew.

Great American journalist once said: "Facts by themselves are not truth."

Still, I was being very nice with that "first of many illustrations" by noting thusly with that citation link:

It appears that Mr. Bainbridge was happy to make any mouthpiece necessary to help sell an instrument.
But in ivory, too! That's pretty

As you can see (or should have seen)....I never said nor implied that it was end blown......just noted how variant Bainbridge was willing to be to fleece someone of a buck...er...a pound...back then. I guess that's why sometimes you're just one large puzzle wrapped in an enigma (or is that enema?....hmmm). Your questions seem to flail all over with statements terribly off point or insinuate something that wasn't said or implied, but merely inferred by a one-eyed reader.

Don't worry about not handling enough triples yet to have found one that is end blown. Some day, dear boy, some day. Keep at it. Not as if there's a huge rush to buy flageolets ("flatulets" maybe?) these days.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:50 am

I think we should petition Dale to start and Andrew and David debate forum.

Loren

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:21 pm

The photo links ALL show side-blown flageolets
Quote !

headwizer · Post by **headwizer** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:29 pm

You can rove from the "slip on" mouthpiece that Wheatstone invented to allow non-flute players to play....
to the Giorgi flutes (with blow hole perpendicular to the flute) that allow flute players to hold the flute vertically as a whistle (or flageolet if you like). "

After a little online searching: the patented Wheatstone embouchure was apparently invented around 1830. By the 1840s, Wheatstone was selling four of them for a pound. Sadly, I can't find a picture of it and the online patent archives don't go that far back.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:07 pm

headwizer wrote:After a little online searching: the patented Wheatstone embouchure was apparently invented around 1830. By the 1840s, Wheatstone was selling four of them for a pound. Sadly, I can't find a picture of it and the online patent archives don't go that far back.

If it is what i think it is, you see it a lot on eBay. You can buy a version for fifes here: http://www.beafifer.com/mouthpiece.htm It's often called a "faker".

Recently a (apparently authentic) Louis Lot flute was sold on eBay for almost $5,000, and it had one of these.

g

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:03 pm

Headwizer look at Dayton Miller DCM 1340 -Wheatstone mouthpiece.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:32 pm

here's the link to the Wheatstone mouthpiece in DCM:
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?d ... ammem_utVh::

Seems as if there's some concern in the writings that it belonged to RSPratten. Why he would own this (at such a young age) is beyond me.

Too, if you have access to a Rockstro, a drawing of the invention is in section 534 (figure 49).

Typical of Rockstro, he thrashes it. On this he might have been right to do so.

And to me, side blown means, blown from the side. Not necessarily blown "through" the side.
As such, I'll give you that the one with ivory mouth piece is END blown....to the side.