Newbie & Tonguing: I know it's a minefield, but I need h

squidgirl · Post by **squidgirl** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:53 am

OK, so I've been searching the archives on tonguing and have mainly learned that it's a hot-button topic. But I really need help here, and am hoping to somehow avoid re-igniting the usual squabbles. The basic problem is my recorder background, causing my newbie whistling to sound just like a kid playing recorder. I started taping and listening to myself, and was just horrified at how toot-toot-tooty it sounded. Blecch!

To try to avert dissention, I'm gonna a leaf from the dieting thread, and set a couple of parameters.

Firstly, I'm not playing just traditional Irish music -- I really like how old folk songs sound on my whistles, plus they're easy enough that I can play 'em w/out getting too frustrated. And since music like this seems to call for a fair amount of tonguing, let's start from the assumption that learning to tongue aesthetically is a valid pursuit. (I'm also practicing all legato w/ cuts on Irish music, but that's (perhaps) beside the point just now).

Secondly, my particular brain is wired in a way that many people find excessively analytical, but that's the way I work -- whatever intuitive brilliance I may possess just doesn't ever kick in until my left-brain has hashed everything over, and that's the step I'm on right now. So this thread is for people who enjoy analyzing stuff and find doing so to be a valid pursuit, OK?

On to tonguing. I've read all the Tuh and Duh stuff, but it doesn't speak to my experience because my D's are actually articulated further forward and a bit more explosively than my T's -- I do D's right at the roots of my front teeth, just behind where I do the Th in "the". My T's are actually further back, in the middle of the ridge behind the front teeth. Anyway, I find that both my "tu"'s and "du"'s sound too explosive for constant use when I listen to myself taped. I'm looking for a softer articulation.

To try tonguing further back, I've been using a Japanese style flicked R ("ra ra ra"), which I've always been clumsy at -- it sounds OK when I get it right, but I can't do it consistently (I'm practicing....). When I do it right, my tongue is flicking the very back edge of the ridge behind my front teeth, right before where the roof of my mouth curves upward.

And I've also tried also a light L ("la la la"), which sounds nice running up and down scales, but doesn't sufficiently separate repeated notes. This L happens slightly forward of where the flicked R hits, but my tongue is "squishier" when I do it.

I've also been playing with articulating further back (I think this the "glottal" stuff I hear mentioned?). I seem to be much faster at doing "ka ka ka" than "ga ga ga", For me, K happens at the very front of the soft part of my throat, and G happens a little deeper in. "Ka ka ka" feels quite comfortable, but "ga ga ga" kind of tires out my throat and makes it feel scratchy. Is there anything wrong with doing "ka ka ka"? It's still a little harder than I'd like the sound to be, but less annoyingly explosive than using the recorder-style "tu" or "du".

And if anyone does a good "du" tonguing, one that doesn't sound as clumsy and explosive as my forward-articulated "du" -- where is your tongue touching the roof of your mouth, and how is it shaped? By "shaped", I mean is it pointed or relaxed or what? When I do T, my tongue is kind of pointed, when I do D, it's kind of relaxed flat and wide, and when I do a flicked R, it's sort of curled backward a bit.

So anyway, for now I've gone back to the very fronts of my tutorial books where it's all nursery songs and suchlike, and I'm taping myself using different tongue shapes and positions on the same song (played over & over, sigh!), looking for something that sounds good and which I can also do without getting too frustrated. And going around practicing that blasted flicked R... I sound like an 8 year old boy during that annoying phase where they wander around making weird noises all the time...

Anyway, I want to get away from that recorder tonguing, and instead develop a range of tonguing or articulation modes, from distinct to almost imperceptible, to help me express musical statements with different feelings. I'd gotten so wrapped up in getting the fingerings for notes into my head that I wasn't listening to how it sounded, so I want to rewind my learning process a bit and concentrate more on making things sound pleasing and expressive.

Any thoughts on this, descriptions of articulation methods, or suggestions of exercises to play with would be very welcome!

Noel

Flyingcursor · Post by **Flyingcursor** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:11 am

Anyway, I want to get away from that recorder tonguing,

That's the spirit!

Somewhere somebody told me to listen to as many whistle players as I can. They all seem to be different. I tongue notes especially on some in some tunes where the same note is repeated quickly. However I am working on trying to use a cut (or is it a tap) instead.

Sorry. That wasn't helpful. I'll leave now.

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:14 am

Since you not only play Irish trad, it sounds like you play some of it. So here are three short pointers on that, entirely my opinion and quite possibly unorthodox:

Learn to play without any tonguing at all. It's not how you want to play ultimately, but it's a great exercise for making your finger movements precise.

Don't tongue repeated same-pitch notes. Use cuts or taps to separate those (put cuts on the strong beats). (Exception: tongued triplets, but I wouldn't worry about those for a while.)

Even if you tongue a lot when playing Irish trad, don't tongue down-beats or accented notes. Slur those.

dreamerlass · Post by **dreamerlass** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:15 am

I never learned tonguing, really, being self-taught on recorder. I tried it a few times, and didn't really like it. I control my toots with just air, sort of a hu-hu-hu thing. I've never listened to myself taped, so I don't really know how it sounds. I also usually slur the notes together, except when playing the same note several times in a row, and sometimes even then.

Flyingcursor · Post by **Flyingcursor** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:27 am

Bloomfield wrote:
Learn to play without any tonguing at all. It's not how you want to play ultimately, but it's a great exercise for making your finger movements precise.

Don't tongue repeated same-pitch notes. Use cuts or taps to separate those (put cuts on the strong beats). (Exception: tongued triplets, but I wouldn't worry about those for a while.)

Now THERE'S helpful information.

Anyway the problem I have is when I try to cut or tap same-pitch notes it sounds like a third note. Am I correct to say that the problem is the speed of the tap/cut?

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:31 am

Noel, Did you look at this thread by any chance?

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php ... sc&start=0

It covers a lot of territory!

But really, you seem to be on the right track experimenting is the right thing to do I think.

Ok, I'm not an Irish trad expert so the forthcoming comments are mainly for the sake of general playing, like playing folk tunes or the Mc Donalds jingle or whatever.

For me, getting a soft attack means saying "Dah" with the tongue somewhere on or behind the ridge of the upper pallette, while maintaining a steady airstream, which means to support the air column a bit by slightly contracting the lower ab muscles as you control the outward flow of air. Do not stop or start the air with the epiglottis, unless you are looking for a special effect; which, I think, would be glottal tonguing and or glottal stops, ( the flute player in Jethro Tull sort of playing).

Really, I hope this helps.

Jeff

Bloomfield · Post by **Bloomfield** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:47 am

geek4music wrote:Anyway the problem I have is when I try to cut or tap same-pitch notes it sounds like a third note. Am I correct to say that the problem is the speed of the tap/cut?

Yes. Practice by slowing the rhythm way down. I mean waaaaaaaaaay down, like triple slow motion. Then gradually increase again until you get cuts that are just little flicks/blips with no discernible pitch. Even at slow speeds, make the cuts as quick as possible (once you have taught your fingers the movement in super triple slow motion).

carrie · Post by **carrie** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:50 am

Well, Bloomfield may be right about not worrying yet about the tongued triplets, but you still might be interested in knowing that instead of ta-ka-ka or any of the other typically endorsed tonguing techniques, Packie Manus Byrne uses "deedle dee" or something very like that. If you don't have Dossan of Heather, check it out.

http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?p=107205#107205

Btw, I too use the whistle for other than Irish music, for old timey stuff and other folky stuff, and even there I think that legato almost always works better on the whole. Obviously there are places to articulate to mark phrases, etc.

Anyway, enjoy!

Carol

squidgirl · Post by **squidgirl** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:55 am

geek4music wrote:Somewhere somebody told me to listen to as many whistle players as I can.

Unfortunately I'm on very limited finances these days, and must depend on our (actually very good) public library system. I've been putting the CD from Cathal McConnell's tutorial into my bedside CD/alarm-clock and making it replay on infinite repeat as I sleep (as well as following along with the sheet music when awake, of course). What I need to find is a definitive tinwhistle discography somewhere or other, and to methodically try entering it into the library's catalog search, to see what I can get my hands on. Anyone know where I can look for such a discography?

Bloomfield wrote:Learn to play without any tonguing at all. It's not how you want to play ultimately, but it's a great exercise for making your finger movements precise.

Yeah, I've been trying this and it makes me realize how much squiffy fingering my recorder-style tonguing had been covering up, especially when there's any cross-fingering going down.

dreamerlass wrote:I've never listened to myself taped, so I don't really know how it sounds.

Nor had I, at least until quite recently, and I was truly and deeply appalled. But for me at least, there's a certain perverse empowerment in realizing, "Yowza! I really suck at this!" As I suffer from relatively unpuncturable self-esteem, noticing that I suck gives me a sense of freshly-ignited agenda to pursue.

And if nothing else, taping myself made me realize why my ex-roommate had so painstakingly hidden my box of recorders & music stuff when we moved in together -- after she moved out, I unearthed it in the attic, buried underneath all the boxes of vintage computer components...

Monster wrote:Noel, Did you look at this thread by any chance?

Yeah, that thread and Grey Larsen's pdf chapter on tonguing were key in getting me thinking clearly about all this.

For me, getting a soft attack means saying "Dah" with the tongue somewhere on or behind the ridge of the upper pallette

This is the ridge behind the teeth, the "continental shelf" before the roof of the mouth arches upward, right?

Do not stop or start the air with the epiglottis, unless you are looking for a special effect; which, I think, would be glottal tonguing and or glottal stops

I've heard people mention that this is bad, but why? I get a cleaner sound with it (going "ka ka ka", if we're talking about the same thing) than I do with most other methods...

[edited for spelling...]

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:35 pm

Squidgirl wrote:This is the ridge behind the teeth, the "continental shelf" before the roof of the mouth arches upward, right?

I think so, yes, that is about the place.

Squidgirl wrote:I've heard people mention that this is bad, but why? I get a cleaner sound with it (going "ka ka ka", if we're talking about the same thing) than I do with most other methods...

Well, for just a straight on attack, such as at the beginning of a tune or start of a phrase I would rather use a tah or a dah or similar to get the note started, I don't have a strict good reason for not using "kah" or "gah" or some glottal other than it seems to take more effort for me, it is slower, and it doesn't lend itself for subtle variation. But, really you know people are different maybe the "kah" syllable is good for you, I would recommend however to try out the "tah" and "dah" variations a bit more before you make the "kah" syllable your default way of tonguing.

Good luck with your discography search, I'm afraid I wouldn't be much help in that area.

jolsen · Post by **jolsen** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:44 pm

Do not stop or start the air with the epiglottis, unless you are looking for a special effect; which, I think, would be glottal tonguing and or glottal stops
I've heard people mention that this is bad, but why? I get a cleaner sound with it (going "ka ka ka", if we're talking about the same thing) than I do with most other methods...

A glottal stop would be more like "ah ah ah" when you cut off the airflow between each. In some cases, the glottal stops end up sounding like little grunts, which don't lend much to the piece musically.

They can also sound mushy due to the way your cheeks control whatever air remains in your mouth when the stop happens. The primary reason for using tonguing would be for a sharp-edged short duration pause, which is much harder to get if you swap over to glottal stops.

JP · Post by JP » Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:58 pm

Wow, that IS analytical. And very interesting too. I don't think I've ever explored my pallett and tongue as much as I did reading this post. Sitting here tongueing along with the post and get to the part about "... sound like an 8 year old boy during that annoying phase where they wander around making weird noises all the time..."

glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee when I read that. Nicely written and most enlightening - wish I had a whistle handy to hear the differences.

Another approach might be excersizing the right brain. And kissing, lots of free-form kissing. Just let it go. Probably should refrain from ka-ka's and ga-ga's though, but who knows. Sorry, not helpful - lame attempt at humor. Got any good calamari recipes?

Redwolf · Post by **Redwolf** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:42 pm

I do tongue, but it's a very legato tonguing. It's hard to say what syllable I use, but the tip of my tongue just barely flicks against the front of my hard palate...maybe more like a flipped "r", if anything.

Redwolf

Monster · Post by **Monster** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:01 pm

Kah, Kah, Kah, Gah, Gah, Gah, good lyrics for a pop song!

mignal · Post by **mignal** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:34 pm

I'm no expert but you may like to try this tip. Firstly, play a slow deliberate slur from F to E, then play the same two notes but this time tongue them both and try to make this attempt sound as smooth as the first. Of course the effect is not exactly the same but that's not the point, just concentrate on trying to make them sound the same and eventually you should end up playing semi-legato.