OT: Calm and Slow FB Political Thread.

glauber · Post by **glauber** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:24 pm

djm wrote:
So now you have the CIA doing politics too
Are you kidding? The US wages all its dirty politics via the CIA.

Yes, but i mean internal politics. Not murdering inconveniently ellected Marxists, but doing book signings and talk shows. Amazing stuff to me, and i did grow up watching Get Smart.

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:27 pm

You are right, djm.
The funny thing about all the torture and the indignation it has produced in the West is that it is not considered abnormal or particularly reprehensible in the Middle East, and especially in Iraq.
Doesn't mean that the rest of us should approve.
The most complete episode of Government killing in recent times before Falluja was the murder of the Davidian sect in Waco under the go-ahead of Janet Reno ( when the Government agents filled the place with tear gas and set it on fire producing the cyanide which killed the sect members, including 27 children ).

jonharl · Post by **jonharl** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:13 pm

I must admit that I don't have the knowledge or verbal skills to debate any of the things being discussed. My degree and skill lies in oil painting and music. It seems to me none of the bashing really has done any good. Maybe another forum more suitable to a political discussion would be appropriate. Let's leave the Flute and Whistle Forums to a more peaceful topic, flutes and whistles. Although I'm very impressed with the knowledge and writing skills everyone has demonstrated.

Best Regards,
Jon Harl

Jayhawk · Post by **Jayhawk** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:49 pm

While I agree with much of what Henke has said, and Andrew, too, tear gas doesn't to the best of my knowledge produce cyanide - if it did, there would be many, many more dead folks across the globe due to use of the stuff.

The Davidian thing was sad, but they were also armed to the teeth with (feel free to correct me, it's been years since then) a lot of illegal weapons and they were also being accused of child abuse. It was horrible what happened, but what happened I truly believe to be an accident...I can't say the same about planes being flown into office buildings and all passengers, women and children, also all being killed - that's something on a totally different level. So it driving a truck up to a federal building and blowing up the workers and kids in the daycare in the building. Isn't it great that terrorist nuts come in all flavors and nationalities?

I understand why a lot of people in the world are mad at the US, but a lot of US citizens are mad at our own goverment now and many have been for years. Yet even there, there are many goverment workers in positions that help the poor, needy and disabled.

Just my 2 cents on the debate so far.

Eric

AaronMalcomb · Post by **AaronMalcomb** » Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:58 pm

This thread is brilliant. Having a thread for people to blab their political ideas and not being distracted by flutes (or vice versa) has provided some very articulate discussion.

Even Andrew, whom I had previously believed was just an internet pugilist, has made a lot of statements I can actually agree with.
Who said open and frank discussion never accomplished anything?

I'm too scattered to compile arguments but I do have to say that Bush is a tool. I don't mean that in a juvenile "Bush is such a tool, dude" but in that he is a tool used by the corporations, the GOP and others. That's about the extent of argument I can compile. Call me an escapist or, heck, even a tool but I'd rather play my flute than research evidence to support my statement.

Keep up the compelling debates.

Cheers,
Aaron

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:42 am

This has turned into quite a thread quickly

Ofcourse we are no saints in Europe. England, France, Spain, Portugal and others have been real bums historically as well. Afterall USA is an independent Europeean colony (can you say that? Well hope you get my point). I'm just saying that right now, and the last few decades, USA have been in a class by itself.

Ofcourse what happened 9/11 was a terrible thing and the terrorists who were behind it are madmen. I find it silly tough, the extreme propotions this has been given in media, not surprising, but silly. The thing that happened wasn't so big. How many was it? 5000 civilians, just because they were Americans it's been considered one of the greatest tragedies in history. Ofcourse it's terrible when even one innocent civilian loses his life this way. None of us whiched for this to happen, and it was terrible. But what about 80'000 children killed in Bosnia during the war there. USA are pretty much responsible for all those deaths. These things happen every single day. Did anyone of you morn the loss of innocent civilians in Afghanistan during USA's war there?

Alot of regimes does evil things all around the world. But no one has been able to convince me that George W Bush is any better that all the other evil madmen out there.

It's funny when we talk about education as well. I heard some time ago of a study being conducted during the later part of the cold war. A large number of American school kids was asked to point out USA on a world map. About 70% of them pointed at Sovjet because it was the largest country they saw.

The prevailing ego and nationalism in USA strikes me as funny, but scary

.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:19 am

Henke wrote:Ofcourse what happened 9/11 was a terrible thing and the terrorists who were behind it are madmen. I find it silly tough, the extreme propotions this has been given in media, not surprising, but silly. The thing that happened wasn't so big. How many was it? 5000 civilians, just because they were Americans it's been considered one of the greatest tragedies in history. Ofcourse it's terrible when even one innocent civilian loses his life this way. None of us whiched for this to happen, and it was terrible. But what about 80'000 children killed in Bosnia during the war there. USA are pretty much responsible for all those deaths. These things happen every single day. Did anyone of you morn the loss of innocent civilians in Afghanistan during USA's war there?
(snip)
It's funny when we talk about education as well. I heard some time ago of a study being conducted during the later part of the cold war. A large number of American school kids was asked to point out USA on a world map. About 70% of them pointed at Sovjet because it was the largest country they saw.
The prevailing ego and nationalism in USA strikes me as funny, but scary .

Yeah, you'r right, Henke. You want us to be the world policeman, but not the world policeman. So, Bosnia was our fault? The neighboring countries of Europe were powerless to prevent any of the "ethnic cleansing"? And it's sad that no one mourned the children. You're right. Everyone here in the US considers what happened in the Balkans to be some kind of huge success. Oh, yes, Afghanistan too. I'm sure that US interests killed many more civilians than Soviet shells. Chechens too; that's because of us.

And, um, did you realize that not all of the people who died in the 9/11 massacre were Americans? Sure, the majority were. I bet there were some Swedes in those buildings too. And muslims.

As for education. Yes, you can quote all of those statistics all you want. Sure, our education system has problems. But this is turning into some kind of personal potshot. We became the most powerful nation in the world because we're all stupid and don't realize where our country is? Probably. I guess that makes us all more scary.

Sometime, when you have learned more yourself, you'll realize that there's another side to the whole issue. Actually, more than a single other side. It's really quaint and convenient, and bloody easy, to sit around on some European high-horse and blame the US for absolutely everything. It's not all true, of course. You need not to fall for the trap that most Europeans fall into, and that's if your media seems anti-US, then what they tell you must be true. In the UK, it seems that if their media is critical of their government, and of our government, then they believe what it says.

I find it really offensive that you'd say that the deaths of 80,000 children in Bosnia is the fault of the US. Pony up the statistics, Henke, and tell me exactly how we're responsible for that. And what do you think we do, sit around sipping champagne while innocent people die around the world? Does that make it easier for you to decide that we're the great evil?

Perhaps, then, you should be concerned that Sweden has been called "the most Americanized country in the world, with the possible exception of the United States." Perhaps the US should divest itself from Sweden, so that you yourself can't benefit from anything that comes out of the US? Or, wait, do you depend on US money to keep your little socialist utopia running?

I never said that my own country doesn't make mistakes. Great power, great responsibility, and the ability to screw up on a royal scale. Blame us for what we've actually done, don't just throw out world problems and say they're our fault because you'd like us to be the bad guys.

Stuart

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:22 am

AaronMalcomb wrote:Even Andrew, whom I had previously believed was just an internet pugilist, has made a lot of statements I can actually agree with. Who said open and frank discussion never accomplished anything?

I'm too scattered to compile arguments but I do have to say that Bush is a tool.

You may not after my last post, but I agree with you. Even Andrew's getting his point across!

And tool, in the literal sense of the word, is exactly the right term for the President.

Oh, well, I'll wait to see if Henke will respond, or not. I'll probably get to hear how brainwashed I am, or some such. Whatever!

Stuart

djm · Post by **djm** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:27 am

Oh, but Stuart, you folks make such good bad guys!

A target is a target. The bigger the target, the slower it moves, and the easier it is to hit.

djm

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:32 am

That's quite true, my friend.

The funny thing is that I'm really very moderate. Liberal, I guess, in the US sense of things, but anywhere else I'd be a moderate.

And I SUCK at being an apologist. But gosh, I do get sick of sanctimonious drivel that floats west from Europe.

It was nice to argue politics with Canadians, since they tend to be well-informed for one thing, and they do realize that the world situation is rather complicated.

Ah, Canada.

Stuart

rh · Post by rh » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:36 am

and before you lay Hitler solely in our lap, have a look here:

http://www.suomalaisuudenliitto.fi/case.htm

neutrality apparently has its advantages....

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:42 am

Interesting link, RH!

And who knew of the Swedish Police beating a Finn to death? I'm sure everyone in the world knows about Rodney King, but wow, the free press in Sweden have done a great job publicizing Swedish police brutality.

Oh, and wait . . . there was a trial with Rodney King . . . but no charges filed in the death of Osmo Vallo? But wait, that was 1995, and it's only historically that Europeans have been "bums."

WOW, that's not to mention the Swedish National Institute for Racial Hygiene, which closed its doors in . . . 1976. Only 60,000+ people sterilized for not being blond-haired and blue-eyed.

Stuart

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:19 am

I don't want the US to be international policemen at all. I want your government to act trough the UN. The UN is our best organ that can deal with international matters. I would like all countries to think of the interests of the world first and protect their own interests second.

I agree Sweden has done plenty of mistakes. Most of them has been in order to not piss anyone off. Our government is probably the worst bootlickers in history.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:45 am

You should read up a little on the UN. It's a good idea in theory, but it sucks in practice. It has rendered itself useless.

A better model for international politics would probably be the EU, rather than the UN, I think.

I wonder if the UN does any good at all. Iraq was in compliance with, oh, exactly zero of what the UN wanted it to do. Yes, I think it was wrong for the US to go to enforce the UN-brokered agreement. But what would the next step have been? More (ineffective) sanctions? Or a war, just like the one now, with UN approval?

Does UN approval make a war just? Most emphatically, no.

Stuart

Henke · Post by **Henke** » Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:02 am

UN is not perfect in any way, but it's the best international organisation we have and we need to work with it. It's dangerous when the largest squad of the international police starts to act on its own, not giving a damn about what the rest of the police force thinks.

And on the Bosnia matter, I agree that it was not directly the fault of the US, but to a large extent it was indirectly (as in so many cases trough history) the fault of USA that the war broke out in the first place because you would not support Jugoslavia to stay united and build a working democracy, you shut them out and blocked them, which led to the war. I should add that the Germans played a rather large part in this aswell.
Then you went in there to bomb, which sure helped the war to end (with tremendous casualties). Your solution in these cases is always to draw weapons real quick and start bombing, even when a diplomatic solution might be very much possible, I suppose that is what bugs me.