some unusual wood suggestions???

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:57 pm

I've always read and been told that French boxwood grows into much larger logs because Buxus sempervirens does better in the French climate than in the English. I don't think it's uncommon in the timber world for timbers that grow in various climates to be of different qualities even though they're the same species.

It's like the Jamaican vs. Cuban cocus question. They too are the same species of boxwood, but the timber seems to grow significantly differently depending on which island it finds itself. Supposedly Hispaniola also grew nice cocus, but I don't think there's any left in the D.R. and who knows about Haïti.

Stuart

eilam · Post by **eilam** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:07 pm

Berti - what maker are you going with? that is kind of more important than the choice of timber.
my wood of choice is Cooktown Ironwood.

Paul Thomas · Post by **Paul Thomas** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:59 pm

andrew wrote:It is interesting that Mr Burns talks of Frenck boxwood .Can he , and does he distinguish this from English boxwood ?

I won't speak for Mr. Burns, but many others certainly do make such a distinction. It is not uncommon for wood dealers, let alone instrument makers, to distinguish between woods of the same species grown in different localities under different conditions.

French boxwood, particularly that from higher altitudes (when it is carefully selected and well seasoned), may preferred by some as quite distinct from English boxwood. The beast grows more slowly at dry, high altitudes than in wetter, lower, milder climates. This results in significant and meaningful (to woodwokers and instrument makers) differences between the two.

Further, some boxwoods sold by wood dealers may not even be of the same species.

By way of analogy, a syrah grape grown on one bank of the Rhone will have slightly different characteristics than a syrah of the same rootstock grown on the opposite bank or in the next village, or cultivated slightly differently--let alone a shiraz (née syrah) which is grown in Australia.

I grant that the skill and experience of the wine/flute maker may captialize upon the differences or obliterate them.

Moi, il-y-a des differences importants, et des characteristiques exceptionelles. Je ne sais plus!

An interesting site:

http://boisbuis.lepetitluthier.org/accueil.htm

michael_coleman · Post by **michael_coleman** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:03 pm

I was just in Salzburg and went to the world instruments music shop there. The guy had some amazing flutes he let me play and one of them happened to be made by the Irishmen Martin Doyle. Apparently, Doyle has experimented with native New Zealand woods and had great success. I played one and was absolutely amazed at the earthy and strong tone. If you want a very different wood I would suggest looking Doyle up, I think you will be impressed.

RudallRose · Post by **RudallRose** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:10 pm

I didn't like the osage fife because it was just too dry a cut. An oily wood, yes, but this one must not have been a good billet.
The tone just wasn't as crisp as the padouk is.
As I said, perhaps it was just a bad billet.
I'm no wood expert!

dm

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:50 am

We were talking the other week to the leading boxwood merchant in England who has been dealing extensively with the French and English markets for 40 years .He was having a laugh about the customers who imagine they can tell between French & English when they just can't .If they see a piece they prefer they assume it must be French , and are keen to pay more for it .He knows the difference because he knows where he bought each tree.

Paul Thomas · Post by **Paul Thomas** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:24 am

andrew wrote:He knows the difference because he knows where he bought each tree.

I would be surprised if someone could tell by examining a half log or turning stock, though an experienced biologist, dealer, or maker could make an educated guess about the wood's "climate of origin" by examining internal and external characteristics of a particular lot.

To buy it *simply* because it's French might indeed be foolish unless provenance itself was the important quality, and one hopes that wood merchants in general are honest enough not to take advantage of those with less experience, and kind enough to educate rather than ridicule a client for lack of experience or knowledge. We are fortunate to have an honest dealer of international repute and long experience who understands the pertinent differences, when they are in evidence, and takes pains to help less experienced clients differentiate between fact and mystique.

For musical instrument purchasers who are looking for particular qualities, seeing the appellation "French" to the wood in question can give a shorthand indication of the potential (and indeed probable) real differences which are apparent to those who have worked extensively with a large number of samples. The shorthand in effect says (if it is true and well selected) that it is pyrenees, thus likely slow growing, thus likely more dense than English box grown under lower/wetter conditions, though quite possibly more tortuous. If a dealer misrepresents the provenance, I suspose it would be tortious instead (I will resist the strong urge to insert an "emoticon" or a torturous exegesis).

That is to say, if you trust the maker's experience, skill, honesty, and assessment of the "chain of ownership"of the raw material, then you will very probably see for yourself a difference in the final product.

No French boxwood? "Let them eat torte."

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:58 am

Boxwood is about the slowest growing wood I know .The local trees I have had have all been over 100 years old .I don't know how much slower growing and denser the Pyranean trees might be .It would be interesting to know .
I am not suggesting that the dealer I mentioned was trying to fool anybody.He gave me the impression that they tend to fool themselves .Most of his customers seem to be Germans anyway ,so I don't care .
I expect that the English made boxwood flutes you all seem to admire were made of English boxwood , unless the trees used were spoils of the Napoleonic wars !

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:04 am

Do you know anything about R&R's cocus stocks, Andrew? I would also assume, following a corollary to your comment on the English flutes and English box, that it's more likely that R&R (et al.) had Jamaican cocus rather than Cuban.

Although, not all the pieces fit. Robert Bigio has cocus from the Rudall shop, and it's all VERY dark black, and I think he thinks it's Cuban. I've heard people say that Cuban cocus is nicer (?) than Jamaican, but it's the Jamaican that tends to be the nice lighter-brown color that some prize in vintage flutes.

Maybe someone with some real botanical knowledge could tell us how much variation there might be in a single species of timber (based on different climates/soil/sunlight, etc.).

Stuart

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:12 pm

I imagine that Robert's wood comes from a later age than Rudall & Rose .I expect that the importation of cocus into the UK was from Jamaica for historical reasons .I seem to remember that Gillows worked in Lancaster to use the great stocks of Honduras mahogany which was being dumped on the key having been used as ballast . Was there any Honduras cocus ? I don't know much about this matter (or anything else ) sadly .Back to Google !

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:05 pm

Hmm, interesting conversation, but at the end of the day it still comes down to the individual piece of wood, and not it's origin, doesn't it.

Does the end user care much whether it's English or French Box, Cuban or Jamaican Cocus? Should they? The quality and seasoning of the piece of wood one's instrument is made of is really where it's at, no? That and the quality of the workmanship and design, of course.

Loren

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:57 pm

I think the answer to that one might be no, Loren. (I'll leave it up to you to figure out which question I'm saying NO to.

)

Actually, while seasoning is important . . . which would be better sonically, well-seasoned crabapple, or green cocus? Probably cocus. I have had people tell me, people who do this for a living, that THEY feel that some of these timbers are of vastly different quality depending on where they come from.

In the case of the boxwood, I have mostly heard folks say that French boxwood tends to make bigger logs, since boxwood grows better in the demi-Mediterranean/demi-mountain climate of the French Pyrenees. In terms of cocus, I have heard people say that the timber itself is more dense (and more desirable, I guess) in trees that grow on Cuba versus Jamaica. So in response to Andrew's comments about box and origins, I haven't heard of a quality difference other than size of usable logs, which I guess matters when you're talking about a very-slow-growing "shrub"-ish thing like boxwood.

If I remember correctly, Bigio's cocuswood is from whatever the last iteration of Rudall was (Rudall-Carte?) and was Cuban in origin. If cocus grows in Cuba now, it's perhaps not economically feasible to cut and sell it. Jamaica grows some, and I know it also grows in south Florida. I haven't read of it growing in Honduras, though. But, as I am not omniscient, there may be some information I'm not privy to.

Stuart

andrew · Post by **andrew** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:29 am

I seem to remember how Cuban mahogany was harder and darker and redder than the alternatives , but pretty well ran out at about the same time as Chippendale himself .Because furniture was more popular than flutes it is easier to find what was going on in that market! (Though people do sit on both ).
The Cuban Mahogany was always called Spanish mahogany , reflecting the political influences of the day .I expect the British influence in Jamaica was greater at the same time .
Nobody seemed to talk about Cuban cocus .I have never seen a piece of cocus furniture ( or I would have chopped it up to make replacement flute blocks ).Come to think of it I have seen plenty of old violin pegs which looked a bit like cocus .I shall go and look!

skh · Post by **skh** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:51 am

I've heard/read the terms "european boxwood" and "french boxwood" used to differentiate between that and certain tropical / non-european hardwoods that are very similar to boxwood but, to my knowledge, completely unrelated. In germany, they are called "Maracaibo-Buchs", "Castello-Buchs" or "Indisch Buchs" and frequently used for recorders.

Margret Loebner (http://www.loebnerblockfloeten.de/) mentions on her page that she uses "indian boxwood" for her larger recorders because it is a bit lighter, so the instruments are easier to hold (and thus, play).

Clive Catteral also mentions that he uses these boxwood equivalents: http://www.flutes.fsbusiness.co.uk/Materials.html.

I remember dimly, but don't have any sources to quote, that spruce from a very specific part of northern italy / southern alps (meran) has certain characteristics due to the climate the trees grow in that makes it preferable to use for sound boards in harps (and possibly guitars et al., not sure about violins). This may or may not be a myth.

I personally also like to know where the tree grew that gave its life and wood for an instrument I play. The harp you see in my avatar, for example, is made of a walnut tree that grew in Alsace, a French region close to the south-western german border, and which the harp maker bought there from a local dealer in person. So it is "French Walnut" to me, which doesn't mean that it is better than german, swiss, or whatever walnut.

Sonja

John S · Post by **John S** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:53 am

Why not look at some native UK and US woods such as Rowan, Cherry, Hawthorn, Elder, etc, but not as trunk timber but as coppiced branches.
I recently made my first Whistle (well it's an end blown flute like the Kaval) out of 2 year old Elder (sambucus nigra) which comes with the hole already down the middle, and the fast growing wood that the tree puts out when cut right back, after seasoning has a specific gravity as high as 0.83.
The North American varieties produce even longer inter nodal sizes (UK 18", US 30")
Native Americans used this wood to make flutes.
http://goss.rho.net/flute/htm/brokenflutecave.htm
In fact the tree was called the Music tree.

Now I know your all going to say seasoning in the round "well dodgy" but I think there is an easy way around this, namely take a piece of green timber branch the right diameter to make your flute drill it and then season, minimising checking.

This winter I'll be collecting some larger diameter Elder to make myself a set of GHB Drones.

TTFN
John S