Tonal qualities of different woods, an example

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:40 pm

I have watched with interest the varied discussions on this topic. Some here and most on the flute forum. Having mostly aquired metal type whistles and wooden instruments of different keys and different makers I did not have enough information to contribute.

Last week we were up in Idaho visiting our son. I also had the chance to visit a local C&Fer while there, Doc Jones. We had a great visit and I got to listen as his family played a variety of music for us. What a talented group he has there.

One thing I did get to do was compare my Blackwood Thin Weasel with his Bird's Eye Maple Thin Weasel. Let me tell you this:

There IS a difference in the way they sound.

My Blackwood is crisp and has a very focussed sound to it. The maple was softer sounding and not as focused, a bit more chiff. It was VERY noticealbe when played side by side. No sound clip as we did not have time to do that sort of thing, sorry.

Just wanted to pass that on and see if anyone else has had the opportunity to compare different woods side by side like this.

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 3:51 pm

Did you do any side-by-side visual comparisons... like fipple opening, ramp angle, etc. ??

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 4:17 pm

The whistles were exactly the same other than the wood used to make them. We did not use calipers or anything, and I am sure there were some minor differences since they are hand made to some extent, but visually there was not differences that were obvious.

sturob · Post by **sturob** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:15 pm

I think it's likely that there's a significant difference between the bore surfaces of those two whistles. The grain patterns of maple and blackwood are quite different, for one thing. Also, untreated maple (being more porous) might have changed (or be changing) more with moisture than would the dense, oily blackwood.

The bore differences alone would give the sound differences you heard: a rougher bore would sound muted relative to a very smooth one.

Now, this isn't to say that there's not a difference between how maple and blackwood sound. Rather, I think it might explain one VERY significant way that timbers do differ.

I know of at least one maker who's treating the bores of his flutes with some kind of resin/epoxy whatever. I wonder if such treatment might render flutes of different timbers more similar-sounding . . . do any whistlesmiths treat the bores with any permanent sealants?

Stuart

Fopah · Post by **Fopah** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:32 pm

I would think that the wood's density would have something to do with it. I dont know to much about wood (not whistles but wood itself) but i bleieve that the blcackwood is denser than maple.

vomitbunny · Post by **vomitbunny** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:49 pm

Interesting discussion. While it's easy to hear the difference in, say, an aluminum, poly, and brass tube, I've wondered about wood. Wasn't that bird's eye made out of that sunken wood retrieved from the Great Lakes?
Uh, if you sound different on a wood whistle compared to a metal or poly , does that infer that you sound different with a woodie?

blackhawk · Post by **blackhawk** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:50 pm

NorCalMusician wrote:Last week we were up in Idaho visiting our son. I also had the chance to visit a local C&Fer while there, Doc Jones. We had a great visit and I got to listen as his family played a variety of music for us. What a talented group he has there.

One thing I did get to do was compare my Blackwood Thin Weasel with his Bird's Eye Maple Thin Weasel.

Boy, these whistles do get around. Each of those whistles used to be mine.

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Tue Apr 13, 2004 9:25 pm

blackhawk wrote:
NorCalMusician wrote:Last week we were up in Idaho visiting our son. I also had the chance to visit a local C&Fer while there, Doc Jones. We had a great visit and I got to listen as his family played a variety of music for us. What a talented group he has there.

One thing I did get to do was compare my Blackwood Thin Weasel with his Bird's Eye Maple Thin Weasel.
Boy, these whistles do get around. Each of those whistles used to be mine.

Well, without the intention of putting my foot in my mouth, that whistle has found a home that REALLY appreciates it. Renee and I played a couple of tunes together the other night (me on the TW and her on the Bleazey) and she REALLY liked the way they sounded together.

Wood Rocks!

brewerpaul · Post by **brewerpaul** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:14 am

NorCalMusician wrote: One thing I did get to do was compare my Blackwood Thin Weasel with his Bird's Eye Maple Thin Weasel. Let me tell you this:
There IS a difference in the way they sound.

Just wanted to pass that on and see if anyone else has had the opportunity to compare different woods side by side like this.

Yup-- I had the chance just last night as I was voicing a batch of 5 whistles. This includes 2 Birdseye Maple ones cut from the exact same board, so the wood couldn't be more identical (btw--one of these is the one in the Jerry raffle, and it really sounds great: buy tickets!). The batch also includes one each rosewood, bubinga and tambootie.
Both of those two whistles sound different. In fact, all five sound different. I've said it before and I'll say again, that I think that the sound difference comes much more from minute variations in voicing. TINY changes in the ramp/fipple area can make major differences in sound.
I know for a fact that Glenn hand files his ramps the same way I do. Although I shoot for the same ramp angle each time, I'm not a milling machine, and they do come out a tad different. Ditto for windway width, distance from fipple to blade etc. Seriously, a variation of a thousandth or two can be heard. Voicing is very much a test-play-test-play kind of thing.
I would love the chance to see those two whistles you played and carefully measure all those dimensions.

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 8:29 am

Thank you for all your replies, everyone. Mucho appreciated!!!

chas · Post by **chas** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:05 am

brewerpaul wrote:. . .The batch also includes one each rosewood, bubinga and tambootie.

Paul, this IS a family forum. Tambootie, indeed.

I agree with Paul and also with Stuart. I've also had identical whistles and flutes of Glenn's, and, while I think the difference in sound between the blackwood and macassar whistles may be due in part to the wood, between Honduran rosewood and cocobolo flutes, it was definitely in the embouchure cut.

That said, I think that there are differences in the ways that different woods finish, and I would consider that an intrinsic difference in the sound of the wood. Also, as has been pointed out, something like blackwood and maple differ in density a whole bunch, and I think that will have some effect on the sound.

Reyburnwhistles · Post by **Reyburnwhistles** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:45 am

I agree that wood of different density will color the tone differently. I made a friend of mine a head out of Brazilian Rosewood and it sounded signficantly different from my standard Maple head. And the voicing was as close to exactly the same as I could get (within .001")
I also agree with Paul that very minor changes in the voicing will also color the tone, so these hand made instruments will be hard to make comparisons in tone based solely on the type of timber.

Ronaldo

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:37 am

Howdy,

Thought I'd chime in here. It was great to meet Steve and Renee. We had a blast and I look forward to their moving this way.

Jeepers three whistle players in the same state! Think of the possibilities!

On the wood thing...I've owned or tried about 5 other thin weasels all in blackwood and two Busmans, one blackwood and one tulipwood.

All these sounded, to my ear very similar, though there were small variations as one might expect. The Maple thin weasel seems different than all of them. I'm not sure I can describe it. It's not exactly chiff in the sense of being airy, but it's a more complex and less focused (in a nice way) kind of sound. It sounds a little less authoritative, more innocent without being wimpy. I quite like it.

Sorry to be unable to more clearly describe it. Someone once said "Writing about music is like dancing about archtecture".

This particular whistle was treated inside and out with a french lacquer to eliminate the need for oiling.

FWIW I've spoken to several fulte makers and they are universally of the opinion that some woods have a different sound character. Particularly boxwood verses blackwood. Seems to me that flutes would have even less variation than whistles in their construction.

The best thing would be for all of you to just come over and try it. I'll make sandwiches.

Doc

IDAwHOa · Post by **IDAwHOa** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 11:53 am

WOO HOO, lunch at Doc's.

Be forewarned: You WILL have to fight off the troops that live there for the food!!!!!

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 12:14 pm

You can experiment with switching heads and tubes that fit each other to see what that does. I've done that with metal whistles and found noticeable differences between brass and nickel, for example. It seems the thickness of the wood tubes influences sound as well.
Tony

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Tonal qualities of different woods, an example

Tonal qualities of different woods, an example

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