Fluters Vs Fiddlers

[oleorezinator]

michael tubridy, michael falsey, seamus mac mathuna, tom morrison.

[Eldarion]

Yes, there are many simple finger system flute players
that can match the Irish fiddlers' rhythmic subtleties and depth
but you won't find them readily in the Irish Traditional Music circles.

Such flute players are found in another tradition
in which the rhythmic subtlety and depth of the human voice,
which is unsurpassed, is the operative paradigm
for all its instrumentalists.

The relevance of this other tradition's flute playing
to ITM can be seen by the fact that certain ITM flautists
and those of related traditions (eg Breton)
are availing themselves of this other tradition,
with a view to utilising its offerings
for their ITM purpose.

(On a separate vein, I also totally agree with
djm's first post in this topic.
Also, there are Irish flutey things that the fiddlers cannot rival.
And? So? ......)

Oh well. I might be
mistaken but I think you have
totally missed the point
I am actually talking about
playing the diddly.
A nuanced diddly rhythm does
not come from imitating flute
players from other traditions I
dont think.

Best,
Eld

[Cayden]

..if I had to choose one instrument that I would get to hear for the rest of my days, to the exclusion of all others, it would undoubtedly be fiddle. (Sorry, Peter, I love the pipes and everything, but... )

Nothing to be sorry about I play the pipes but listen to the fiddle, nothing comes near the fiddle for subtlety and expression.

[Ro3b]

As a flute player learning the button accordion, I can only say that subtlety's a neat gimmick if you like that kind of thing.

[talasiga]

Oh well. I might be
mistaken but I think you have
totally missed the point........

Maybe I have missed it but I hope I haven't messed it.

BTW,
I also missed your response to the "Butterfly" on mopane flute
question in the "instruments that irk me" topic.

[The Sporting Pitchfork]

I'm another flute player/piper who finds himself in the thrall of fiddle players and their art. The phrasing, the incredibly subtle contrasts, all those great, earthy, double stops. Almost makes me wish I played the damn thing.

I find it ironic, though, that in terms of expression, flute players usually seem content to cede the contest entirely to the fiddle (or pipes) without much argument. In my opinion, out of all the instruments present in Irish music, no other instrument comes close in terms of potential expression to the flute. It's got a healthy dynamic range and a multiplicity of ways to articulate individual notes. I don't think there's any other instrument, except for the fiddle, where the player has so much control over how to shape each note. However, the playing technique has evolved in such a way that, for better or for worse, many of these potential techniques are under-utilized or even actively discouraged.

I also think that among trad. musicians (but especially flute players), there's a degree of self-effacement inherent in this sort of stuff. Lots of flute players, box players, and pipers tend to go nuts describing their love of the fiddle, but it's also a two-way street. Think of all the fiddle players that talk about how they "love the pipes;" all the ones who do lots of piping imitation stuff and droning. Tommy Potts was known to insert breaks in his phrasing in an attempt to emulate the sound of a flute player taking a breath. Perhaps what it comes down to is that a lot of musicians aren't really happy with the instrument that they play, or at least they like to say so a lot (ex. Tony MacMahon). I suppose the only way to be really happy would be to be a great player of all three instruments (and there are a few people out there that are...clever Basmatis). But if you were ever to accomplish such a thing, you might start to find yourself inexplicably drawn to accordion music.

[djm]

I'm not sure I'd agree that players of different instruments aren't happy with the sound of their instruments so much as that they appreciate the nuances that other instruments add to the music. The flute's playing and breath stops add a wonderful extra dimension to the timing. Its almost an ornament in itself. Same with piping. The ornaments are unique enough that a fiddler or flautist would want to capture those unique effects in their own playing. And many fiddle versions of tunes are much richer in their choice of notes over piping versions, where sometimes piping ornaments tend to oversimplify the tune, so that a piper might want to add some of the fiddler's choices in the way a tune is played. Each instrument's capabilities are like different facets of the whole, and copying those effects to another instrument just makes that other instrument's repertoire that much richer.

djm

[talasiga]

.....In my opinion, out of all the instruments present in Irish music, no other instrument comes close in terms of potential expression to the flute. It's got a healthy dynamic range and a multiplicity of ways to articulate individual notes. I don't think there's any other instrument, except for the fiddle, where the player has so much control over how to shape each note. However, the playing technique has evolved in such a way that, for better or for worse, many of these potential techniques are under-utilized or even actively discouraged........

This is my feeling too.
That's why my post on the utility of techniques from "another tradition"
for the purposes of ITM to realise that "potential" as you say.
But apparently I "missed the point".

Anyway, as I am not one who prefers the Irish fiddle over the Irish flute
I'm outa here FTTB.That is to say, ITM flute playing,
even the way it is, with its purported limitations,
is not surpassed for me.
One a honey bee, the other a lark.

[talasiga]

...... The flute's playing and breath stops add a wonderful extra dimension to the timing. Its almost an ornament in itself......

Right on.
The heart of any piece of music
is the unique secret of its silence.
To think the flautist may evince it
by virtue of his or her very breath.

[Eldarion]

Oh well. I might be
mistaken but I think you have
totally missed the point........

Maybe I have missed it but I hope I haven't messed it.

BTW,
I also missed your response to the "Butterfly" on mopane flute
question in the "instruments that irk me" topic.

I must have missed that because I never followed that long thread too much but yes, unfortunately that was me indeed. On the subject of borrowing from other traditions, yes its nice to bring in new techniques and what not. But the kinda rhythm great Irish musicians use is something really fundamental and unique. Because of this it (good nuanced rhythm) is not something you'll get from picking from outside the tradition. You might get an interesting mix from fusing this and that but it generally does little for the rhythm - a fundamental element of the music in question.

I'm particularly interested in Irish musicians that have a relaxed way about their playing and yet maintain a really dynamic, nuanced rhythm - a lot of potential energy going on if you get my anology. For some reason I still think its more common to find that in fiddlers/pipers/concertina/box players. As a flute player myself it makes me wonder why.

[meemtp]

Being both a fiddle player and a flute player, I feel qualified to voice an opinion. They definitely both have their own unique qualtities, but I definitely feel the fiddle offers more opportunities for subtlety. There are many little tricks that can ad a lot of depth to the music that can be done on the fiddle. The other advantage is the sympathetic string effect. This happens with any instrument tuned in fifths, as the fiddle is, and instruments with courses of strings. It's an ever so sublte vibration of ajacent strings that are not being played. I'm not sure about the scientific explanation for it, but it's not common with all stringed instruments. It's subtle, but it definitely adds a lot.

Corin

[talasiga]

.......But the kinda rhythm great Irish musicians use is something really fundamental and unique. Because of this it (good nuanced rhythm) is not something you'll get from picking from outside the tradition. You might get an interesting mix from fusing this and that but it generally does little for the rhythm - a fundamental element of the music in question.......

No, of course you cant get the uniqueness of a tradition
by cutting and pasting from another tradition.
You mustn't have understood my posts.

My point is, if the Irish fiddlers' subtlety (your claim)
cannot be matched by the Irish flautists
while a flautist from another tradition can match it
then how much more potential there is
for the Irish flautist to match it
with the advantage of utilising techniques from the other tradition
(NB technique does not = music)

Irish fluting did not arise in a vacuum .
Since ancient times, there has been a pan Eurasian
simple finger fluting system spanning from County Kerry
to Vietnam.

[talasiga]

I must have missed that because I never followed that long thread too much but yes, unfortunately that was me indeed. .......

Perhaps it is unfortunate for you
but not for me.
Stop fiddling with the truth.
You are a beautiful flute player
and you know it.
In pieces that you play
try and hear the music that rises
despite your personal limitations.

[talasiga]

Being both a fiddle player and a flute player, I feel qualified to voice an opinion. ......

No! You will only be qualified
when you can play flute
as deeply and subtly
as you can play fiddle.

Otherwise not.

[Eldarion]

My point is, if the Irish fiddlers' subtlety (your claim)
cannot be matched by the Irish flautists
while a flautist from another tradition can match it

I dont quite get this. So this flautist from another tradition can play good Irish music? Its one thing to be a good flute player and another thing to be a good Irish musician with great rhythm.

then how much more potential there is
for the Irish flautist to match it
with the advantage of utilising techniques from the other tradition
(NB technique does not = music)

I don't think the state of affairs is as so because Irish fluting has an insufficient range of techniques. I'd imagine its due to a relatively lesser emphasis on rhythm, rhythmic nuances and subtleties compared to fiddlers or pipers. The advent of Bothy bandish styled playing didn't do wonders for the popularising of rhythmic nuances either I dont think.