Scales?

[jim stone]

So I stand by my original post-the idea of practicing scales/arpeggios is a Western concept that people mistakenly try to import into IrTrad. Peter's posts prove this point. I still believe that if one is going to learn Irish trad in an inauthentic environment (i. e. anywhere but Ireland), then it is best to try and duplicate the original practice as closely as possible.

Some observations. Celtic music is Western. Nobody is suggesting
that practicing scales and arpeggios should be done before
learning tunes (this goes to your earlier post). Practicing
scales and arpeggios is practice, not theory.

I don't know what it would be to 'import' this practice into
ITM. I suppose it would be for people who play ITM
to practice scales and arpeggios as part of improving
their mastery of their instrument. Maybe that's a mistake,
but I don't know what it is. What's the problem?

Peter points out, and is in a position to know, that good ITM
players in Ireland don't do this. But why shouldn't
we? There's got to be some practical downside, and
I don't know what it is.

In my own experience this much seems true. Practicing scales
and arpeggios, which I began doing several years after
I started playing flute and whistle, increases dexterity,
speed, and (on the flute) quality of tone. It appears to
do this more so than playing just the tunes. It's boring,
but it seems to help me master the instrument.

On the other hand it doesn't affect the way I play tunes,
it isn't as though I sound like I'm playing scales
when I'm playing a hornpipe. Maybe if I played
scales for thousands of hours, but there's little
fear of that!

If you want an interesting theoretical claim that could use some motivation, it's that if one is going to learn
ITM in a non-authentic environment, it's best toduplicate the original practice as closely as possible.
Why, exactly? Take the case of practicing scales and arpeggios.
These aren't part of the original practice, apparently.
Still, why not practice them?

Best, Jim

[Cayden]

So I can also understand what Wombat is articulating in the other posts. Great traditional players might not practice scales per se, and perhaps there are many who could never translate scales to a stave on paper. But they surely understand the structure of the music they're playing, and thus implicitly they understand the fundamental unit that a musicologist would call a 'scale', and in all the keys their instrument can play.

Couldn't agree more on the structure bit, I think though the basic unit for the traditional musician is the phrase, the building blocks of the melody are the anchor.

And to edit in a reply to Jim, the down side of learning arpeggios and scale is that you will neglect the phrase structure in the tune when you approach a tune as a set of arpeggios.

As an example take the Lark in the Morning. Pretty much arpeggio structures and am I wrong to think your local session will play:

dB AFA AFA BGB BdB AFA AFA fed BdB

as in two neat groups of three notes to the bar?

My local would break it up as

{dB AFA A}{ FA BGB B}{dB AFA A}{ FA fed B }

each a distinct little phrase with two notes leading into it .

That I think sums up your essential difference.

[Wombat]

The reason I got annoyed was that nothing in the thread suggested that nashradus was exclusively interested in ITM or any form of folk at all. .

Maybe it should be automatically assumed but let's face it in matters of beginner's questions it always boils down to the same 'scale' 'rolls' ornamentation' etc.
If beginners here generally [and believe you me they do all the time] are so keen on learning techniques so specific to the one kind of music what's wrong assuming that generally they are intending to go that road. What's the point of learning ornamentation if you're not going to play diddly music?

To be honest, I simply didn't know what the intended application was. I just took the initial question at face value. The exercises I gave were just stock ones you'd find in any tutor, give or take an idea of my own in one or two places. The fact I can think up an exercise doesn't mean I play it. As for ornamentation, I gave one exercise just in case, but it was picked up from an Irish musician giving a formal class. On his Homespun tape, Cathal McConnell suggests an exercise for learning rolls but, since it had nothing to do with scales, I didn't mention it here.

[Wombat]

And to edit in a reply to Jim, the down side of learning arpeggios and scale is that you will neglect the phrase structure in the tune when you approach a tune as a set of arpeggios.

Would this happen if you played arpeggio exercises in suitable dance rhythms? Must it happen?

[Cayden]

I do think it will happen if you're not used to playing the music and understand it's structure. Yes.

I added a little tune example above, forgive my new keyboard for rendering the barlines as squares.

[jim stone]

And to edit in a reply to Jim, the down side of learning arpeggios and scale is that you will neglect the phrase structure in the tune when you approach a tune as a set of arpeggios.

I'll watch out for that, thanks. I don't feel much at risk, honestly.
I see these as exercises to improve dexterity on
the flute, not as ways of getting to understand the music.
I barely have a grasp of things musical; for me,
arpeggios are other tunes. I find the exercise
helpful, but peripheral.

By the by: When I was a kid I had piano lessons and my
teacher made me play scales, etc.
I found them lovely and began playing them
in a flowing way, with feeling and
emphasis. This ended the lessons,
the teacher deciding I had no sense of rhythm.
I figure I'm safe. Best

[janice]

Wombat, we are essentially in agreement then. I too came to IrTrad as an adult trained in Western classical music. Was I surprised to find out that that training was virtually useless when it came to playing IrTrad (as a matter of fact, in a lot of ways it was a hinderence). This is not to say that that knowledge is not valuable, as I do understand the theoritical underpinnings of the music, however, as it is not part of the IrTrad practice it is not essential knowledge for proficiency in that practice.

We bring our own perceptions/misconceptions to what we do. I have taught adult tin whistle beginners for the past ten years, at both a Summer School and a Community Music School here in Canada. In my group lessons with rank beginners, the very first thing that I teach them is the D Major scale on the whistle. This is NOT because I think they need to know it, but because they THINK they need to have some "exercises" prior to learning tunes on the whistle (because of their own preconceived perceptions as they are only aware of Western musical practices). So I teach them a D Major scale...they are paying to be there, they are adults, and this knowledge makes them happy (yes, I am pandering to them). And it is an artificial situation, being a week long camp.

However, after I've taught them the scale I leave it, never to come back to it again, instead teaching them (by rote) an easy polka. I emphasize that if they really want to learn IrTrad they will only really be able to do so by listening, listening, listening, and to forget the notion of "scales/arpeggios,etc." Of course, this is only what I do, and how I learned IrTrad on my own, and others are free to do as they wish!

I've also been a music teacher/band director in the Western tradition for the past twenty years and I would not begin teaching my band students in this way, as in the Western tradition, being able to decode written notation is a vital skill in that practice. One also needs technical exercises to be able to function in Western practice. These two "traditions" are an essential part of the practice of Western European art music known as "band."

I think that people need to be aware that different musical practices have different musical traditions, applicable to those practices.

[janice]

Jim-"Celtic" music is not the same as Western European art music (The term "Celtic" music is an artificial one, according to Dr. Kari Veblen. She notes in her study of Irish Summer Schools that, "the Celtic revival was identified as a marketing scheme, appealing to modern humanity's quest for simple, agrarian, and mystical roots."). While IrTrad's roots are situated in "Western music" it is not a Western European art music, for many reasons. Two musical examples:
1) Uilleann pipes are not "tempered," i.e., do not co-incide with (what some would call) the "tyranny" of Western tempered tuning.
2) Western European concepts of harmony do not underlie or "fit" IrTrad.

Just some thoughts.

[Wombat]

Thanks for explaining Janice. I really suspected fairly soon that we only had a very slight difference of opinion here and so it turns out.

When I started learning to read I had the opposite problem to the one you mention. After a couple of times through with the music, I'd find that I'd memorised the tune I was learning. I'd try to follow the music but, since I didn't need it, my attention would wander. Then I'd go for my sax lesson. My teacher would stop me to make a point about phrasing and say ..'go back to the F#' and when I struggled to find it he realised that I had only been pretending to read. Still, he knew why and was sympathetic.

I think this difference in direction is probably behind the difference in attitude. You are acutely aware of what, from the folk point of view, would be bad habits because you had to eliminate them painfully in your own playing. I had a completely different set of bad habits when it came to playing jazz, although the ear development you get learning folk styles is crucial in jazz so I never developed disrespect for my old ways. Once I'd learnt to read I never felt that I was handicapped since I knew the importance of phrasing, ear training and listening and never really expected from theory or exercises any more than it could usefully give me. But I did at last feel that I finally understood better how tunes were put together in exactly the way Gary just expressed. So I'm inclined to think that you and Peter had that understanding to begin with and perhaps take it for granted in much the way I take learning by ear for granted.

Well, maybe; maybe not.

[Darwin]

The reason I got annoyed was that nothing in the thread suggested that nashradus was exclusively interested in ITM or any form of folk at all. .

Maybe it should be automatically assumed but let's face it in matters of beginner's questions it always boils down to the same 'scale' 'rolls' ornamentation' etc.
If beginners here generally [and believe you me they do all the time] are so keen on learning techniques so specific to the one kind of music what's wrong assuming that generally they are intending to go that road. What's the point of learning ornamentation if you're not going to play diddly music? The ornamentation is music specific, not whistle specific.

Just one tiny data point: Although I've been playing for a whole month, I still consider myself a beginner. And, although I've asked questions about ornamentation, I'm really not the least bit interested in getting very deeply into ITM. It's the whistle I'm interested in. Although I've been working on several slow airs and a couple of hornpipes, I also play lots of Scottish, American, and Chinese folk songs--and even a few blues tunes--that I already have in my head.

I started on guitar back in 1960, when I was in college. This was during the Great Folk Scare, but there was not yet much available in the way of instructional materials. We listened to recordings and tried to figure out what the heck was going on. I could play all the chords, but that was about it. My big breakthrough came when I switched roommates and got myself a real live music major. I forced him to explain about keys, scales, modes, chord structure, and chord progressions, and I found that I was then able to learn by ear much more quickly, because I was able to anticipate some of the possibilites.

As the only guitarist playing a mishmash of all kinds of "folk" music at a small Central Texas college, I would never have made the kind of progress I did without some theory.

I still practice a great variety of scale patterns on the guitar as a way to maintain dexterity. They are particularly useful on the guitar as a way of learning to separate pick direction from relative string location. I find that the same kinds of patterns are helping me with odd fingering patterns going across octaves on the whistle.

When I practice, I'm building physical skills that let me forget about the physical aspect of playing, so that I can concentrate on content. I don't have time to be reborn as a little baby in Ireland (even if I did believe in reincarnation), and at the age of 61, I probably have only about 50-60 years left to learn this instrument.

[talasiga]

I know is going to sound rather silly, but I have a question. When you say that you practise scales, what exactly do you do? Do you just go up and down the D major scale, jumping octaves ? I tried doing that for a while, but found it quite unexciting, so I reverted to practising tunes that I know. Could someone post a regimen for practising scales, and what I should be focusing on when I'm doing it? Thanks!

~nash

This was the original post, right? Now Janice, how do your remarks bear helpfully on this question? This is the whistle board, not the ITM board. I'm not trying to be mean, I just think you've gone OT.

........

I don't feel she was OT.
What I distil from Nash's initiating post
is an issue about overcoming boredom in music practice.
He actually used the word unexciting.

So no matter how excellent or "indispensable" anyone's method
or approach is,
in the context of Nash's issue their ultimate value
can only be elicited by the acceptance
of Goddess of Excitement residing with Nash.

As such, every sincere offering is valid
for consideration.

That some offerings may be marked by passion
or strong opinion is, in itself, a matter for Excitement.

[feadogin]

I'm with Janice and Peter...

Why play scales when you can get better just by learning tunes? Sorry, but I think scales are boring! If I wanted to play scales I would be learning jazz...

Justine

[nashradus]

I know is going to sound rather silly, but I have a question. When you say that you practise scales, what exactly do you do? Do you just go up and down the D major scale, jumping octaves ? I tried doing that for a while, but found it quite unexciting, so I reverted to practising tunes that I know. Could someone post a regimen for practising scales, and what I should be focusing on when I'm doing it? Thanks!

~nash

This was the original post, right? Now Janice, how do your remarks bear helpfully on this question? This is the whistle board, not the ITM board. I'm not trying to be mean, I just think you've gone OT.

........

I don't feel she was OT.
What I distil from Nash's initiating post
is an issue about overcoming boredom in music practice.
He actually used the word unexciting.

...

In my initial post, I was asking for common exercises involving scales that people in this group (and not ITM folks in general) use for practice/training, because the ones that I came across (namely going up and down the D major and jumping scales) were really boring! I still use some exercises that I was taught when I learned Carnatic music several years ago.

Janice, even in Indian music where the focus is on aural immersion, scales and exercises derived from them are used as a way of training the ear as well as to get acquainted with the instrument. I agree with Jim on this - practising scales and appregios is practice and not theory. In Carnatic music (as in Jazz I'm told), improvisation on the scale constitutes an important part of a performance.

The use of scales in learning IrTrad is something that I cannot comment on, since I'm a rank beginner to this and am looking to learn from people more experienced than me. Janice, your advice is well-received, thanks!

~nash

[talasiga]

............even in Indian music (both Carnatic and Hindustani), working on scales is a proven and traditionally adopted way to get better acquainted with notes and phrases. Maybe talasiga can shed some light on this.

........

EXAMPLE Scale Practice for D key flute

Darbari Raag in B
(ie B natural minor scale)


Indian Solfa Notes Used:-

B=S;
C# = R
D = g
E = M
F# = P
G = d
A = n
B+ = S'
(note: notes below S are indicated with commas after them
eg lowest D = g,).


the "mode or thaat scale":
SRgMPdnS'

the raag scale for Darbari:
n, S R g r S M P d n S' (up)
S' n d P M P g M R S (down)

a typical motif:
g R R S d, n, S R S

Primary and 2ary compositional notes:
1. r
2. P

1. Practising the mode scale for one hour may get boring.
2. Practising the raag scale will be inspiring esp latter stages.
3. The motif practice will bring you down from the universal
to (probably) the first line of the original folk tune from which the raag is abstracted.


Which practise shall I describe?

[talasiga]

I'm with Janice and Peter...

Why play scales when you can get better just by learning tunes? Sorry, but I think scales are boring!.........
Justine

Just show me a tune without a scale
Go on .......