Improvisation in ITM

[Darwin]

I've been only vaguely aware of ITM as a unique musical culture. Now I guess it's time to start finding out more about it.

In Bluegrass, improvisation can get pretty extreme. It's often a case of whole new melodies being generated that only vaguely resemble the original. Sometimes a few key phrases are retained. Other times only the chord progression remains. In an actual performance, it's common to start and end with a fairly standard version.

A similar thing is to sort of freeze an improvisation into a standard variation. I have three variations on Salt Creek. One is the first version I learned--I don't know where. The second is a version I learned from a Japanese mandolin player. The third is based on an improvision I came up with that I liked well enough that I played it over enough times to memorize it as a set piece.

I know from reading Brother Steve's site and others that it's normal in ITM to vary one's approach to a tune to avoid its becoming boring, but I was wondering whether this is commonly carried to the point of modifying the basic melody.

I know that there are obviously variant tunes. Does one player typically work through several in a session, or is it more usual to stick with one version?

[boyd]

Maybe its not a thing so easily spotted in a session...[unless there's an accordian there ]

The session is not really what the tradition is about. Sessions are great fun, and big in the UK, Ireland and the US. But they are an end in themselves and not really what the "tradition" is all about. Session playing requires several [or many] people playing roughly the same version of a tune. Only so much variation can happen, or you risk losing or confusing the other players. Well, that's only if the other players can HEAR you !!

The tradition is much more about solo or at most 2 or 3 folks playing together...they play variations in technique and in melody, sometimes in unison and sometimes individually, each player closely listening to the other[s]. Its a much more intimate affair, and the best ones I've had have been in kitchens for some reason.

I won't knock either of these two ways of playing the music. I have my own preference. Others will have theirs.
I don't find playing with a dozen others at the same time does anything much for me.....mind you, there's safety in numbers when you don't know a tune so well!!

There are folks out there who have spent 20 years developing their version of particular reels and jigs...you add layers to the tunes as the years go by. There's no fast way into that kind of maturation...it's like distilling a good whiskey...takes time and appreciation.


Sounds like you might lean more to the tradition than to the sesson approach.


Boyd

[jim stone]

One thing that seems not to happen in ITM is
that people set out a tune and then
go around and improvise, as happens
in jazz, say. You seem not to be talking so
much about improvisation as a tune's
evolving over the years, or different
variants of it being out there,
which does happen. Best

[Wombat]

There were some hints in Darwins post about improvisation as we know it in jazz, not clearly distinguished from the 'different versions' phenomenon. I think its pretty clear that improvisation in that sense doesn't take place in ITM—nobody plays on the changes. On the other hand, good players, playing solo or in small groups, will often employ endless subtle variations as they proceed giving the impression not of harmony or polyphony as such but rather of something I'd call ragged unison. What I have in mind is pretty much what Boyd was describing I think—two or three players who know eachother's styles will play 'around' eachother in ways that aren't arranged but which don't depart from the melody in the radical way familiar from blues, jazz or bluegrass. The variation can be extremely subtle: an unusual little triplet here, a C natural that's a bit sharper this time through than it was last time, a slide here rather than there.

Some groups like Moving Hearts clearly improvised in the jazz sense. The jury is still out IMO on the question of whether the fusion they created is really a new branch of trad. I think most people here who care would say that it isn't. Two things are clear to me. First, the free harmonic improvisation they indulged in came from the jazz and rock side of their fusion music and not the ITM side. Second, if enough groups follow their lead (as Kila have done) then this style of music will become traditional some time in the future although it will still probably just be a small branch on a much larger tree. Much of what is now considered traditional was originally imported.

[jim stone]

I confess one of the things I most enjoy
is flat out improvising, as in jazz, etc.
I do that at acoustic jams, sometimes.
Somebody starts a tune, we play it a few times,
then go round and everybody who wants
improvises. Of course I have no idea how
one would do that with jigs and reels,
on the wing. I can barely play them, to
begin with, though doubtless there are
some who could.

By the way, Darwin, it's nowhere written
that these instruments must be used only
for ITM. Blues, bluegrass, etc are fair game, too,
of course.

[Cathy Wilde]

A lot of players here are heavily Bluegrass or even country; old-timey stuff, too. So it's not unusual for us to just play whatever. Sometimes we improvise, sometimes we don't; sometimes we actually take solo sort-of-improvisational trips through a tune, sometimes we keep it as pure as we know how; sometimes we go from an Irish tune into something like the Temperance Reel, you just never know -- it kind of depends on who's playing with whom.

But to me it's always neat to hear a different take on a tune or set; whether you decide to learn it that way is up to you. (And actually, I like trying to set the whistle into some Bluegrass stuff -- mostly longish notes, etc., but it adds an interesting color)

[fearfaoin]

I have been playing on Wed. nights with a group that does a "folk music sing-along", since the slow session in my area seems to have gone belly-up. I was just thinking about bringing my clarinet along to improv there... but I hadn't thought about improv w/ the whistle. I'll have to try it out! Thanks for the idea, Darwin...

Anyone know what blues scales can be played on a high D whistle? Or is there a better method for improvising around a chord progression (blues scales is just what I learned in high school jazz band...)

[Darwin]

Anyone know what blues scales can be played on a high D whistle? Or is there a better method for improvising around a chord progression (blues scales is just what I learned in high school jazz band...)

The pentatonic blues scales work at least in:

E : E G A B d e
B: B d e f# a b
A: A c d e g a

I have a few friends who have had some formal training in jazz guitar, and they seem to think a lot about scales and modes. On the other hand, with the guitar I am very chord-oriented.

Although I do some scale practice, it's mainly for dexterity--and maybe for getting the whole thing down into the depths of my brain. In the past, I've also practiced "hot licks" that produce some typical Bluegrass sounds.

One of the main ways my friends and I have learned has been through the rote memorization of fiddle tunes or banjo tunes. There seems to be a vocabulary of figures that recur in lots of tunes. The more tunes you learn, the bigger your vocabulary becomes, and the more fluently you can "speak" through your instrument.

With the whistle, I seem to be improvising the melody in my head, and it just comes out of my fingers. I expect that as I get into a steady practice routine and start learning some tunes, I'll get better at that aspect of it, too.

In other words, I see scale practice and the learning of tunes as a way of acquiring technical playing skills. Of course the tunes have a value of their own--art for art's sake. (Only a few folks see the art in scales--and even those aren't likely to sit through a scale concert.)

Thanks for all the replies. I recall reading some time ago that Irish music was originally played all in unison, and that the playing of harmony lines was quite new and not accepted by all musicians. Some forms of music in the US inherited the unison approach--often just a fiddle and a 5-string banjo playing as close to note-for-note unison as possible. This has changed radically in Bluegrass. So, that's what got me thinking about how ITM approached variation in tunes. I don't expect to ever play with even a small group of ITM musicians, so it wasn't so much of a practical question as just idle curiosity.

[jim stone]

Just to add that low D whistle is interesting
with blues, as is the wooden flute.

[spittin_in_the_wind]

Why not do a little improvising, especially if you are on your own? Sometimes if I'm trying to play a tune I don't know well and get tired of trying to keep up with the notes, I'll play variations along the chord progression while listening to the music. Sometimes you can get really different moods for the same tune that way. MInd you, I wouldn't be doing this in public personally, since I'm sure no-one else would appreciate listening to me experiment, but it is fun and sometimes you can come up with some really pretty harmonies that way. Or take off on a slower song and invent variations on the melody based on the original tune. After all, we're in it for fun, and like someone else said in a different thread, sometimes listening to 20 people all playing the same melody line is a little monotonous.

I'm really happy for you, Darwin, you sound like you are having a blast already!

Robin

[Darwin]

Why not do a little improvising, especially if you are on your own? ...

I'm really happy for you, Darwin, you sound like you are having a blast already!

Thanks, I really am. Actually, I can't really resist doing a little improvisation on a tune that I know well. At the very least I need some variations. I'd bore myself silly if I had to play the same tune five times in a row.

Speaking of playing something over and over: I was in a band (Carolina Quickstep) that played the Tumwater Bluegrass Festival back in 1981, and after the festival, there was a late-night party with all the performers. There were some amazing clog dancers in the group, and they started some kind of wild dance to "Ragtime Annie". There must have been at least a dozen mandolins, banjos, and guitars, and quite a few fiddles. The song went on forever, and when you got bored after playing it for the tenth time, you could just walk away and someone else would take your place.

Those dancers must have been in terrific shape, because they were wearing big ol' boots, but still managed to get their knees up above waist level with just about every step. I'm sure the dance went on for a good 20 minutes--and "Ragtime Annie" isn't exactly a waltz.

[fancypiper]

I think in ITM you will see more of what is termed "variation" rather than improvisation as such.

You essentially play the basic melody but with "trick the listener" in mind. You play the same tune, but differently than the turn before. For instance, instead of a 3 note run up the scale, you might replace it with a roll or invert the run so that it goes down the scale instead.

It works great when everybody in a small group knows a slightly different version of the same tune and they can pick up variations from each other that they haven't thought of themselves on the fly. That is real craic.

Our bouzouki player was a classically trained guitarist and has played classical guitar, old time, bluegrass and rock and roll. It is mind blowing to hear a rock or bluegrass lick on the bouzouki during an Irish tune. He never plays the same thing twice, it seems. He says they just pop out..

[fearfaoin]

The pentatonic blues scales work at least in:
E : E G A B d e
B: B d e f# a b
A: A c d e g a

Thanks, Darwin! Those sound great.
With a slide between the 3rd and 4th notes in each of those, I start to sound like Jethro Tull on my Hoover Whitecap/Generation!

I'll try them out this week... Gotta find a folk song in E...