plze visit my new whistle tutorial site--tinwhistle ring mem
plze visit my new whistle tutorial site--tinwhistle ring mem
I've been away from this board for maybe a year now?? I have been playing with an Irish trio for about two years now and finally after performances people have been approaching me for lessons. I created a whistle tutorial website in preparation for taking on students because of this advice--if you want to find out how much you really know, write it down. My site still has too much room for improvement, but I feel it is ready to share with the public. It is aimed at beginners, but I would really appreciate it if the masters would check it out and make suggestions. I would appreciate it if the beginners would make suggestions too. Thanks to Dale Wisely and Chiff and Fipple--my site, whistlelessons http://users.wirelessfrontier.net/~ysgw ... ssons.html, now exists. My humble gratitude to you all. My site has just become an official member of the tinwhistle webring, so at the bottom is a link to this ring and many many related sites. Even though the link says pending, it works.
Last edited by ysgwd on Fri May 25, 2007 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cayden
I listened to your Otter's Holt clip
Rather than asking us what we think I think anybody who sets out teaching anything should look at what they think they have to teach and then decide whether or not to go ahead
Listen to your own clip think whether or not you have basic musical skills to pass on like playing steady, playing in tune, being able to play together etc
Be critical listening to yourself, make up your own mind
Rather than asking us what we think I think anybody who sets out teaching anything should look at what they think they have to teach and then decide whether or not to go ahead
Listen to your own clip think whether or not you have basic musical skills to pass on like playing steady, playing in tune, being able to play together etc
Be critical listening to yourself, make up your own mind
backfire
Peter,
For the past year I've been thinking of updating our clips, but out in this part of the world it is expensive and difficult to record a group. Trust that I have improved a thousand fold in my playing from another year's worth of practice from two to four hours a day. Also, Peter, trust that if people approach me after a performance about paying me for lessons, that is a pretty good start at qualifying me to teach them. And finally, trust that if I have the nerve to post a website for criticism, and to leave old clips accessible even though my pride begs me to do otherwise, that I may have more qualifications to teach than simple technical precision. Thank you for responding and giving me a reason to bump this thread back to the top for others to use to access my draft site. Cheers and peace.
Lisa
For the past year I've been thinking of updating our clips, but out in this part of the world it is expensive and difficult to record a group. Trust that I have improved a thousand fold in my playing from another year's worth of practice from two to four hours a day. Also, Peter, trust that if people approach me after a performance about paying me for lessons, that is a pretty good start at qualifying me to teach them. And finally, trust that if I have the nerve to post a website for criticism, and to leave old clips accessible even though my pride begs me to do otherwise, that I may have more qualifications to teach than simple technical precision. Thank you for responding and giving me a reason to bump this thread back to the top for others to use to access my draft site. Cheers and peace.
Lisa
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cyberspiff
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susnfx
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It's obvious you put an incredible amount of time and effort into this, Lisa, and you've covered a lot of ground. After spending quite a bit of time reading through it, though, it almost seems too detailed - information overload. My main suggestion would be more listening to ITM greats and learning by ear.
It's a good idea and I hope you get it where you want it to be.
Susan
It's a good idea and I hope you get it where you want it to be.
Susan
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spittin_in_the_wind
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Hi, Lisa--
I took a look at the website and thought it was a little thick and technical, but the information might be useful for someone interested in general music theory. However, I was wondering if the lessons are the ones you would use to teach. What particularly concerned me was that students apparently don't get to play a tune until the sixth lesson? They're not going to stick around that long, if that's the case. Give them a nice easy whistle-friendly tune the very first day, something that can be played in the lower register, to take home and practice. Then, give new tunes every week. I'm trying to imagine myself working through these lessons as they are presented, and I think I would get pretty bored pretty quickly. The technical stuff is important to learn at some point, but people just really want to play pretty tunes, and the sooner you can get them there, the better. Having given adult students horseback riding lessons for a while, I found that when a teacher gets too technical right off the bat, the students' eyes tend to glaze over. They really just want to get moving.
Anyways, the website looks like it could be a useful addition to the other whistle tutorial sites out there, with more emphasis on classical music theory than is found in other websites.
Best of luck!
Robin
I took a look at the website and thought it was a little thick and technical, but the information might be useful for someone interested in general music theory. However, I was wondering if the lessons are the ones you would use to teach. What particularly concerned me was that students apparently don't get to play a tune until the sixth lesson? They're not going to stick around that long, if that's the case. Give them a nice easy whistle-friendly tune the very first day, something that can be played in the lower register, to take home and practice. Then, give new tunes every week. I'm trying to imagine myself working through these lessons as they are presented, and I think I would get pretty bored pretty quickly. The technical stuff is important to learn at some point, but people just really want to play pretty tunes, and the sooner you can get them there, the better. Having given adult students horseback riding lessons for a while, I found that when a teacher gets too technical right off the bat, the students' eyes tend to glaze over. They really just want to get moving.
Anyways, the website looks like it could be a useful addition to the other whistle tutorial sites out there, with more emphasis on classical music theory than is found in other websites.
Best of luck!
Robin
All who have responded so far--most of all thank you for taking a look. Your time is valuable to me.
Spiff,
I feel no shame in saying ouch my way if others chose to spank me their way. Did you look at my site, Spiff? I would still value your opinion. I have done a lot of work, and now I have a lot more to do and could use help here.
peeplj,
Yes, I am with you. Now I just need to convince the group to do this. Thanks for giving me the confidence to bring up the subject again with them.
Susan,
Yes, maybe it isn't enough for me to say at the top that this is where I do all my talking so we don't waste playing time. I will work on the structure of the site so it doesn't overwhelm.
Robin,
Yes, so so important to emphasize real tunes! I will work on how to present the site's lessons as special focuses and not the actual sequence.
All,
Thanks to you now I see the imbalance of what I say the site does and what it actually does. The content is not consistent with the purpose. My efforts have been acknowledged and I thank you for that.
Lisa
Spiff,
I feel no shame in saying ouch my way if others chose to spank me their way. Did you look at my site, Spiff? I would still value your opinion. I have done a lot of work, and now I have a lot more to do and could use help here.
peeplj,
Yes, I am with you. Now I just need to convince the group to do this. Thanks for giving me the confidence to bring up the subject again with them.
Susan,
Yes, maybe it isn't enough for me to say at the top that this is where I do all my talking so we don't waste playing time. I will work on the structure of the site so it doesn't overwhelm.
Robin,
Yes, so so important to emphasize real tunes! I will work on how to present the site's lessons as special focuses and not the actual sequence.
All,
Thanks to you now I see the imbalance of what I say the site does and what it actually does. The content is not consistent with the purpose. My efforts have been acknowledged and I thank you for that.
Lisa
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Darwin
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Hi Lisa,
I'm such a complete beginner that I haven't even received my whistles yet (though two of them are sitting in the Oakland UPS warehouse ready to come down on Tuesday).
I actually ran across your site last night while navigating the Tin Whistle Web Ring, and I enjoyed reading through the whole thing.
However, I did skim over the terminology section, as it's pretty familiar to me. One suggestion I have is to a link from such terms to would bring up a little text window that the student could read and then close. I suspect that most students will have trouble memorizing all the terms at first, so that by the time they see them in text, they may not remember what it was all about in the first place. Even the little text windows could contain links to other terms used in them.
That way, the student could read through that section to get a general feel for it without having to actually memorize it all at once.
Since your stated purpose (as I understand it) is to prepare your students for live lessons, I'd say it looks pretty good. It also seems to work for the secondary purpose of answering basic music questions.
Several of the lessons also seem quite useful to someone, like me, who already has a habit of what I would call "deep practice". When I was learning the 5-string banjo and the Earl Scruggs book said to repeat a roll 1000 times, I did that...and then did it again. However, I can see that they may not be as appealing to folks who aren't quite so obsessive about their learning. (Not everyone plays scales for fun, the way I do.) So, having an early simple tune or two may help keep their hopes up.
I like the sort of "discovery" approach that many of the lessons take. Of course, since I'll be learning alone, the ones that require a partner aren't all that useful to me.
Hope my comments will be of some use to you. I may have something more useful to say once I get my whistles.
I'm such a complete beginner that I haven't even received my whistles yet (though two of them are sitting in the Oakland UPS warehouse ready to come down on Tuesday).
I actually ran across your site last night while navigating the Tin Whistle Web Ring, and I enjoyed reading through the whole thing.
However, I did skim over the terminology section, as it's pretty familiar to me. One suggestion I have is to a link from such terms to would bring up a little text window that the student could read and then close. I suspect that most students will have trouble memorizing all the terms at first, so that by the time they see them in text, they may not remember what it was all about in the first place. Even the little text windows could contain links to other terms used in them.
That way, the student could read through that section to get a general feel for it without having to actually memorize it all at once.
Since your stated purpose (as I understand it) is to prepare your students for live lessons, I'd say it looks pretty good. It also seems to work for the secondary purpose of answering basic music questions.
Several of the lessons also seem quite useful to someone, like me, who already has a habit of what I would call "deep practice". When I was learning the 5-string banjo and the Earl Scruggs book said to repeat a roll 1000 times, I did that...and then did it again. However, I can see that they may not be as appealing to folks who aren't quite so obsessive about their learning. (Not everyone plays scales for fun, the way I do.) So, having an early simple tune or two may help keep their hopes up.
I like the sort of "discovery" approach that many of the lessons take. Of course, since I'll be learning alone, the ones that require a partner aren't all that useful to me.
Hope my comments will be of some use to you. I may have something more useful to say once I get my whistles.
Mike Wright
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
"When an idea is wanting, a word can always be found to take its place."
--Goethe
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cyberspiff
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No problem. Anytime you want a spankin' give the old Spiffster a call 
Personally, I like the information on the site, but think it would be much better presented a different way.
Think of it in layers, the top layer is for the absolute beginner. Get them playing quickly and slowly progress to more complexity. Brother Steve's web site is a good example of this. Lots of good examples makes his site excellent.
The next is the intermediate player, here you can introduce basic theory, more complex tunes, different modalities, etc.
Finally for the advanced player get into the gory details and tell 'em to buy a Mary Bergin or Joanie Madden CD, lock themselves into a closet and not come out until they can sound like that. You'll never hear from them again
Regarding the HTML, my general rule is more pages is better than fewer. Too much information on a single page is distracting and hard to follow. I don't know a thing about web site design, but do know that pages like Brother Steve's or Michael Eskin's are simple, easy to follow and navigate around. I'd suggest looking at them and copying the basic format, with your own personal touches making it your page.
Basically, what we were all taught in school should hold true. Keep it simple.
Personally, I like the information on the site, but think it would be much better presented a different way.
Think of it in layers, the top layer is for the absolute beginner. Get them playing quickly and slowly progress to more complexity. Brother Steve's web site is a good example of this. Lots of good examples makes his site excellent.
The next is the intermediate player, here you can introduce basic theory, more complex tunes, different modalities, etc.
Finally for the advanced player get into the gory details and tell 'em to buy a Mary Bergin or Joanie Madden CD, lock themselves into a closet and not come out until they can sound like that. You'll never hear from them again
Regarding the HTML, my general rule is more pages is better than fewer. Too much information on a single page is distracting and hard to follow. I don't know a thing about web site design, but do know that pages like Brother Steve's or Michael Eskin's are simple, easy to follow and navigate around. I'd suggest looking at them and copying the basic format, with your own personal touches making it your page.
Basically, what we were all taught in school should hold true. Keep it simple.
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes.
--Jack Handy Deep Thoughts
--Jack Handy Deep Thoughts
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Cayden
OK Lisa clearly you didn't want an answer to your question, not even a fairly diplomatic one.
I think a good teacher has insight in his/her own abilities has insight in what he or she has to pass on. Also I think a teacher should have abilities beyond the raw beginners stage when he or she starts teaching If you start teaching music you better know what it's about, if you haven't great technical ability then at least have the insight in the nature of the music you are teaching to get people started. Your clips showed that you lack dismally in all these things, at least at the time of recording. possibly you have improved since recording that, if you don't want to be judged by what you posted, sit down and record a clip on your own takes about ten minutes to sit down in front of your computer and send a clip to Clips and Snips. Just don't go all snotty if you get an honest reply to a question you asked yourself in the first place. In the meantime I think you should just play, learn and have fun with it but not even think of teaching it.
I think a good teacher has insight in his/her own abilities has insight in what he or she has to pass on. Also I think a teacher should have abilities beyond the raw beginners stage when he or she starts teaching If you start teaching music you better know what it's about, if you haven't great technical ability then at least have the insight in the nature of the music you are teaching to get people started. Your clips showed that you lack dismally in all these things, at least at the time of recording. possibly you have improved since recording that, if you don't want to be judged by what you posted, sit down and record a clip on your own takes about ten minutes to sit down in front of your computer and send a clip to Clips and Snips. Just don't go all snotty if you get an honest reply to a question you asked yourself in the first place. In the meantime I think you should just play, learn and have fun with it but not even think of teaching it.
reconstructions
So far I have many many helpful ideas on restructuring, reframing, redeveloping, etc. I appreciate the replies from people who understand my initial question. Funny thing about teaching is students are the real teachers, and teachers are the real students. So, I will also work hard on not ever forgetting my real place in the arrangement. Some people advise against showing works in progress, but I think this fear limits the potential of the final product. Some of you really took great care in looking at my site and making very constructive suggestions. I only hoped I would get this kind of caring attention. You helped me conclude what I suspected, that with the proper attitude, willingness to be honest about what we know, don't know, can and can't do well, and determination to produce the ideal, we can teach people to outplay us! Teachers have a responsibility to say when a student has outgrown them, true, and to point to epitome examples, so of course I have a lot of work to do on the discography section. Even with help that section will have to remain subjective.....
My favorite thing about Brother Steve's site is how open he is in unlocking mysteries. His site is empowering. Please keep sharing.
Lisa
My favorite thing about Brother Steve's site is how open he is in unlocking mysteries. His site is empowering. Please keep sharing.
Lisa
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Bloomfield
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Re: reconstructions
Well, I read most of your page, but I didn't understand the initial question because I am neither a master nor quite the beginner anymore. But as for showing works in progress, there is nothing wrong with it if you are honestly seeking input and not just validation. When you get it straight and true from someone who has the music, like Peter, it's bound to hurt at the time, but looking back in a few years you will see which comment helped you grow and become a better player/teacher: the unpleasant truth or the mushy feel-good post.ysgwd wrote:So far I have many many helpful ideas on restructuring, reframing, redeveloping, etc. I appreciate the replies from people who understand my initial question. Funny thing about teaching is students are the real teachers, and teachers are the real students. So, I will also work hard on not ever forgetting my real place in the arrangement. Some people advise against showing works in progress, but I think this fear limits the potential of the final product. Some of you really took great care in looking at my site and making very constructive suggestions. I only hoped I would get this kind of caring attention.
Also, you mention caring attention. You should realize that for anyone to take the time to read your site shows caring attention. People care about you and your effort here, and they care about the Music and the Tradition. When it comes to caring about the Music, and since a lot of people are reading this board who themselves don't have a firm grasp of the Music yet, it is important that there are those in the know who say things clearly and even bluntly. (And that's why you asked for input from the masters, right?) It may smart a bit at the time, but it's better that way for the Music and for you, and for those who read it here.
What strikes me about Brother Steve's site is the tremendous amount of thought that he has put into the writing and the graphic presentation of his material.My favorite thing about Brother Steve's site is how open he is in unlocking mysteries. His site is empowering. Please keep sharing.
Lisa
/Bloomfield
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Cayden
You say you received lot of caring advice somehow I feel implying my advice wasn’t caring. Even if it wasn’t what you wanted to hear, it was. my advice was to go out listen and play this music learn and enjoy it then once you have the basics right and your fingers sorted you should go and teach.
Showing a work in progress is good but that is what you are doing when you go out with your band, your playing is your work in progress going out to play will make you face your own limits and eventually will make you grow. But I maintain that if you want to transfer skills you will have to obtain them yourself first. Realise that when teaching by ear you teach by example you really have to have it right before embarking on such a venture, you owe to the people that come to you to be taught and to the music you teach.
Showing a work in progress is good but that is what you are doing when you go out with your band, your playing is your work in progress going out to play will make you face your own limits and eventually will make you grow. But I maintain that if you want to transfer skills you will have to obtain them yourself first. Realise that when teaching by ear you teach by example you really have to have it right before embarking on such a venture, you owe to the people that come to you to be taught and to the music you teach.
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emmline
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Peter, I didn't find her reply to you snotty. However, when I read your posts I must work hard to take them at face value, and not respond with the emotions your tone evokes.Peter Laban wrote: Just don't go all snotty if you get an honest reply to a question you asked yourself in the first place.
I'm sure you don't care. I'm also certain, based on reports by Bloomfield and others, that you are an excellent musician. Do you have clips posted on Clips&Snips or elsewhere? Because when I read your somewhat high-horsed posts, it would help me to have heard some of your work, so at least I can say to myself, "annoying as hell, yes, but at least he can play the heck out of a whistle."
edited to say, for the record, most of what Peter has said in this thread makes perfect sense.