It's Sickening

[Bloomfield]

Christian,
I agree with you completely. I think you've assessed Phil's and Loren's posts just right.

My concrete suggestion for Dale & Rich:
Don't change a thing. The board is remarkable as it is. People are people, they are emotional, hasty, opinionated, and silly. I think we are grown enough to handle it. I don't like the go-running-to-rich proposals. A healthy forum should be self-regulating: participants should be able to get a sense of what is considered acceptable by the other participants directly.

[Teri-K]

On 2002-01-24 09:35, Bloomfield wrote:
Christian,
I agree with you completely. I think you've assessed Phil's and Loren's posts just right.

My concrete suggestion for Dale & Rich:
Don't change a thing. The board is remarkable as it is. People are people, they are emotional, hasty, opinionated, and silly. I think we are grown enough to handle it. I don't like the go-running-to-rich proposals. A healthy forum should be self-regulating: participants should be able to get a sense of what is considered acceptable by the other participants directly.

You make a very good point with your view on "the go-running-to-rich proposals". Yes, we are adults here, so I find the idea of running to the moderators with "nanner, nanner" and "Mom, he's touching me" a bit disturbing. I find the idea of publicly attacking someone very offensive, and believe that people should have the good graces to take it outside. But, we live in the real world, I that won't happen. If posters get into a public argument and make asses of themselves, so be it. I think I have the ability to distinguish and don't think posts should be censored. Dont', like it, don't read it. On that note, what does it say that this thread has had 1,600+ views??? Possibly the car crash mentality? I do agree that commercial posts shsould not be allowed. Rich has a very valid reason in that he should not pay for their free advertising. If someone wants to advertise, then let them make a donation.
My 3 cents
Teri

[Feadan]

On 2002-01-24 02:31, Loren wrote:
Let me be clear that I make no apologies here, for I've not done or said anything I'm ashamed of.

Well...okay...but making apologies for causing disruption, pain, and offense never hurts (whether or not one has done anything they feel "ashamed of"). Quite the contrary. It fosters healing and respect for all the parties involved. It seems to me the problem is that folks may be feeling a pattern of unrepentant abrasive behavior which has the opposite effect.

David

P.S. Just food for thought

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Feadan on 2002-01-24 13:58 ]</font>

[JessieK]

Ok...I have resisted posting for quite a while. I still don't know if posting is a good idea, but I am going to do it anyway. Often when someone is offended by someone else's post, an additional someone inevitably chimes in with "well, if you are offended by a commercial post, why aren't you offended by a picture of cats?" This is not very insightful. It's true...some people are more offended by commercial posts than others...and while some tend to turn the other cheek, others respond publicly, sometimes harshly. And even if it is a matter of who is posting that makes someone respond...that is valid. I know my cat pictures and trip pictures bother some people. I take the risk anyway sometimes, because that's who I am, and I am not harming anyone with it. But onto this thing...here's something to chew on. Many of us have read the article on the C&F expensive site about Overtons and Chieftains and how they came to be. Some of us know more than others about that. Well, in this story, Phil doesn't come out glowing. That said, Colin Goldie NEVER makes commercial posts. Phil makes commercial posts very often, every couple of days or more, it seems. Something people like to assume is that all whistle makers are equal (in integrity, character, etc.). This is simply not true.

Jessie

[jim stone]

Loren, this business takes some sorting
out. I don't like seeing you called a
blowhard, unprincipled, mean, etc. because
it isn't true--in my rather lengthy view.
Also I'm not sure the board's reaction
to your posts is always spot on--note
my remarks in the discussion about
policy. I do feel that we're going
round this circle again and again,
and that the exchanges aren't
healthy for anyone.

It isn't that you have anything to be
ashamed of or that you are unethical
or any such. Not everything gets sorted
out according to right and wrong;
injecting principles into some things
can put more energy into them than
they merit.

It's simply this--some of the people here who
know you well and I daresay value you most are saying 'Please don't do this, it isn't
working, it makes us unhappy.' It's
a matter of nuts and bolts day to day
getting along with people--not so
profitably seen as an ethical conflict
or a matter of principle. Innevitably
in any community some behaviour doesn't
work, it truly bothers people, a
healthy community will say so. Doesn't
mean people don't have a right to
behave in that way, that it's immoral;
as if I'm playing the tune faster
at a session than the others wish.

You say you won't change, but please
let me ask you to reconsider. No need
to change because otherwise you are
immoral, wrong, or heaven knows what
else. A lot of what you say in explaining
your behaviour makes sense to me. It isn't a federal case. Just
do it for us.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jim stone on 2002-01-24 11:48 ]</font>

[Jeferson]

I, too, have a lot to say, but I'd better keep it short! The more I think about it here, the more I see innuendo as a problem in that it leaves a sour taste ("someone did something awful but I won't tell you about it, but trust me it's awful...") and, in the case of this board at the moment, there is not a real way of answering to it.

Rich made the suggestion that those who quibble with Dale's whatamess summary set him straight, and I think that is probably the best thing to do assuming that Dale will sort it out and post an update if necessary.

As for apologies, they are worth nothing if not sincere, so there's no sense asking for one.


Jef

[jmssmh]

This is all because of WHOA. When you gather together more than 100 people with the same addictive mental illness occasionally tensions will rise. I am shock that with our fragile emotional state worst fights having happen.

Joe

[Dale]

By golly Joe, you are right on the money.

Dale

[Dave Parkhurst]

I still like the name "Tooters".....

[clark]

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Dale's pleas for civility. Dale sometimes seem slightly sheepish about this as though civility might be preceived as just interpersonal prissyness. I don't hold this view. Civility strikes at the heart of our connectedness in deep and powerful ways. As a Buddhist we have a Grave Precept that admonishes us against "speaking of the misdeeds of others". This isn't just your run of the mill precept, but one of the 10 grave ones.... and for good reason, as we have seen here.

On the other hand, there are no Buddhist precepts (grave or otherwise) against sexy asian teens. Dale is just full of good ideas!

Clark

[LittleMy]

On 2002-01-24 10:02, Teri-K wrote:

Yes, we are adults here, so I find the idea of running to the moderators with "nanner, nanner" and "Mom, he's touching me" a bit disturbing. I find the idea of publicly attacking someone very offensive, and believe that people should have the good graces to take it outside. But, we live in the real world, I that won't happen. If posters get into a public argument and make asses of themselves, so be it. I think I have the ability to distinguish and don't think posts should be censored. Dont', like it, don't read it.

This is pretty much my view, for what it's worth.

And 'Tooters' is a name I find offensive. I am a <b>tweetler</b> thankyouverymuch.

[Dale]

Thanks. Regarding my views on civility: I don't mean to come off as sheepish or apologetic about it. I do feel very strongly about it. I have, in fact, rather radical views on the subject. In my mind, civility is more or less the same thing as fundamental respect. I believe almost all human problems--on a local and worldwide level--can be attributed, finally, to deficits in fundamental respect. I think most human problems could be solved by a consistently held and practiced attitude of respect. Help us see how near is this kingdom.

Dale

[PhilO]

I just lost this long-winded post and am resurrecting it (perhaps I should have taken the hint?) I, like Jessie, have refrained from posting on this until now, because I was unsure what to make of it all. I have shared e-mails, postings and whistles with Loren for the past several years and respect his opinions on whistles and his forthrightness with respect to related issues. I also appreciate that he picked up on the sham post (I felt like a jerk for not realizing right away). Sometimes his delivery is somewhat lacking, but I will miss him on the Board. I have come to appreciate the Board for relaxation and sharing; I use it to get help, give help, and tie in to threads that interest me for whatever reasons of the moment. I come home each day from a pressurized politically charged work environment and appreciate the lightness of the Board. I think it was Dave Parkhurst who said we need the silliness. Sometimes there are posts that I feel are personal, nasty, overbearing, pointless, or transparently commercial. If you don't like the post, skip it. Some take backhanded shots at Jessie's cat posts; ok, don't read the darn thing, skip all of her or mine or anyone's posts if you don't like them, but where's the harm? I also think totally open Boards are baloney. This Board seems to do pretty well generally in self-regulation with just a touch of administrative guidance. Some Boarders have posted some really good ideas, including the cite "my right to swing my fist ends at your nose." DOn't ask me what my point is here; there is none. Goodnight. Philo

[brewerpaul]

On 2002-01-24 19:40, DaleWisely wrote:
I believe almost all human problems--on a local and worldwide level--can be attributed, finally, to deficits in fundamental respect. I think most human problems could be solved by a consistently held and practiced attitude of respect. Help us see how near is this kingdom.

Dale

Amen!

[Teri-K]

On 2002-01-24 19:40, DaleWisely wrote:
Thanks. Regarding my views on civility: I don't mean to come off as sheepish or apologetic about it. I do feel very strongly about it. I have, in fact, rather radical views on the subject. In my mind, civility is more or less the same thing as fundamental respect. I believe almost all human problems--on a local and worldwide level--can be attributed, finally, to deficits in fundamental respect. I think most human problems could be solved by a consistently held and practiced attitude of respect. Help us see how near is this kingdom.

Dale

Or just the old Alabamaism my mother taught me... "you don't show you're butt in public"